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-   -   Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=153939)

LadyJ Dec 15 '11 6:26pm

Two Weapon Fighting
 
I am a little confused as to the rules in 4.0 concerning two weapon fighting. I have been told that you must take two weapon fighting as a feat in order to be able to duel wield. Therefor, I must spend two feats on two weapon fighting and two weapon defense and then I have to choose attacks/powers that specifically say two weapon fighting for me to be able to get two hits in. Is this correct? It seems like two weapon fighting is almost useless and difficult to be able to do.

Any help or advice?

~LadyJ

Cnyperos Dec 15 '11 7:01pm

You DO NOT have to take 2 two weapon fighting to be able to duel weild. Who ever told you this is lieing.

Unlike 3.0/.X/.5 There is no penalty to duel weilding aside from not being able to use a shield. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat adds extra damage to your offhand attack, and Two-Weapon Defence (The next feat in the chain) gives you a +1 shield bonus to AC.

Hell, there are powers that require you to have two weapons which would really screw over rangers if you HAD to have two-weapon fighting.

How equiping weapons works:
Two-handed weapon:Requires both hands, cant be used by Small creatures.
Versitile weapons:Can be used both one handed and two handed, but if your small it is required to be used two-handed
One handed:Used in one hand, can be duel weilded if meduim sized, can't be used if small (I think).
Light one handed:Used in one hand and can be duel weilded. Can be duel weilded by small creatures.

Ranged Weapons:
All ranged weapons are considered two-handed except for Hand crossbow, which is a Light one handed ranged weapon (and thus can be duel weilded by small creatures, otherwise my kobold rogue I have on the back burner wouldn't be able to use the two-fisted shooter feat.)

If your friend challenges you over this, pull up Character Builder and show him/her differently.

LadyJ Dec 15 '11 7:10pm

Thanks. That clears that up. A subsequent question is when rolling, do you roll once for each weapon or roll once for both weapons? My old dm would let me roll once for each weapon and roll damage for each weapon. However, with my new dm (who is a first time dm) we are unsure of how exactly you are supposed to roll. I think he may have looked it up, but I can't remember and I'm not sure which is correct.

leons1701 Dec 15 '11 8:20pm

In 4e you only ever roll once unless a power, feature or feat says different, no matter how many weapons you wield. You'll pick one as your primary weapon when you attack, that's the one that will do damage. There's no point in dual wielding unless you have abilities that take advantage of it, at this point that means either a two weapon ranger, a tempest fighter or a whirling slayer barbarian are the only options for those that want to dual wield.

tobiasosir Dec 15 '11 9:05pm

I'll just add that while leons1701 is right, and there are only certain builds that take advantage of it, you're still able to dual weild for any class. The trick is that you'll only be able to use one weapon at a time.

For example, I have a fighter who dual wields a whip and a bastard sword. I have a couple powers that allow two attacks, but I can use either the whip or the sword for any other attack. So dual wielding can be beneficial, with the right weapons--it gives you some versatility, especially once you get magic weapons.

If you want to be able to make two attacks in a round, though, leon's got it with the classes mentioned above.

Nexus75 Dec 15 '11 9:34pm

You could actually equip a parrying dagger or other weapon with the off-hand keyword and use two-weapon defense for some extra added protection plus versatility by having your off-hand weapon also have some nice power on it.

You still won't be as efficient as a class that actually uses two weapons like a Ranger, though.

leons1701 Dec 16 '11 6:02am

True enough, there are ways to use dual wielding if you don't plan on attacking with your off hand. For that matter, all the Two Weapon feats work without having powers that attack with the off hand. However, getting good mileage out of those builds usually requires an experienced player who knows the tricks of the system.

LadyJ Dec 16 '11 6:19pm

So am I correct in coming to the conclusion that, without getting specific attacks/powers, dual wielding is a bit worthless? I want my drow assassin to be as bad @$% as possible, but I really don't know the 'tricks' of d&d all that much. My d&d tutelage has been a bit floppy I guess you could say. I wish I could upload her current profile and post it to ask for suggestions, but I can't at the moment.

Her AC is 19, FORT 15, REF 17, WILL 16. Her abil scores are: Str - 15, Con - 11, Dex - 18, Int - 10, Wis - 10, Cha - 17. She is a level 5 assassin with her trained skills being Acrobatics, Athletics, Intimidate, Stealth, and Streetwise. Class features include: poison use, attack finesse, Bregan D'aerthe Starting feature (levitation power), Quick Swap, Death attack, and nimble drop. Her feats include: Two weapon fighting and defense, Xen'drik Weapon Training, and assassins cloak. Her powers/attacks are: Bola take down, basic melee attack, precision dart, quick shot, ranged basic attack, assassins strike, cloud of darkness, levitation, continuous levitation, and summon the mists.

tobiasosir Dec 16 '11 7:04pm

Using two weapons isn't worthless if you don't have the powers, you're just not getting as much out of it. If you don't have the powers, you're getting versatility (ability to use two different weapons based on the situation) and potentially a boost to AC (by using a defensive weapon on one hand, like the cutting wheel or parrying dagger--each of which require a feat, so it's probably not worth it for you). But if you want a completely optimized character, you're better off with something else.

As for optimizing your character...first off, 19 for AC at level 5 seems low. I think the basic rule of thumb for a defender is to be around 17+your level--which in this case is 22. You're a Striker, so the average is going to be a bit lower...I'd say aim for 19-20. As an assassin, you should be wearing light armour, which means your dex mod is added to your AC; by level 5, you should also have a magic enhancement to your armour.
For your ability scores, are the numbers you quote after racial modifiers or before? Dex is your primary stat, so it should be an 18 before mods--at level 5, it should be 21 in total, with a +5 modifier to your attack rolls.

As for feats, I'm not sure why you have four; at level five you should only have three (one each at level one, two and four). Unless your DM has houseruled it. Two weapon defence and two weapon fighting are separate feats, and probably won't do you much good.

On the other hand, if your class features include quick swap and poison use, it sounds like you're playing an Executioner instead of an assassin. (Well, it's a type of assassin, but there you are). If you want to use two weapons, I'd recommend going with Way of the Ninja from dragon 404 as your Guild Attack; it gives you proficiency with the Kusari-Gama, (also from 404), which is a defensive two handed weapon. When you're wielding it, you gain +1 to AC, and your two weapon feats kick in.
One thing to note, though, is that the assassin is built around swapping their weapons around; this is why each of your at will powers uses a different weapon. When you stop using a two handed weapon, you lose all the benefits of your feats. So, for example, if you use your bola takedown at will power, you have to use a bola--a one handed weapon--so you don't gain anything from the two handed weapon feats. With this build, you're better off using those feat slots for something else.

Edit: It looks like an Executioner can have Two Weapon Defence of Sheild Proficiency for free, which explains the extra feat. My bad.

LadyJ Dec 16 '11 8:12pm

Everything was done via the official d&d character builder. Which, I'm not going to lie, confuses me. I had less problems making characters in 3.5. I really don't understand the executioner label with the assassin. It seems rather redundant to me. When the builder offered me classes, I just chose the one that said assassin and executioner also shows up on me character sheet. I don't know if it makes a difference, but as a 'theme/background' I chose Bregan D'aerthe Spy. I guess overall, I'm not sure how I can best take advantage of my character. I really want to be sneaky sneaky, stab stab, kill. Also, we did not level up from playing, we just made characters that start at level 5 and only had so much gold to equip ourselves with, hence no magic enhanced stuffs.


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