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-   -   Independence Movements (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=185734)

Powderhorn Oct 10 '12 3:53pm

Independence Movements
 
Over the last year or so, there have been independence movements across the western world. Some have histories stretching back for quite a while longer, but in the news of late I'm familiar with:

Catalonia: Catalonia has been autonomous, a part of Spain, autonomous again, and invaded, suppressed, and held since about 1469, but, most recently, has a rough majority to form it's own nation. The Spanish parliament just recently voted to stop a referendum on Catalonian independence, however, and this seems unlikely to change.

Scotland: Scotland has been in the news of late with the Scottish National Party holding a majority in the Scottish parliament, and planning a referendum on Scottish independence in 2014. While they do not desire to be a part of the United Kingdom, they do not necessarily see themselves as a republican organization, and do not seem adverse to keeping Queen Elizabeth II as their monarch.

Quebec: This is perhaps the one I am most familiar with, simply due to it's relative proximity to my own home. Quebec has had the Parti Québécois since the 1960's, and has had varying levels of support, calling referendums in 1980 (rejected by 60%) and 1995 (50.6% "No" to 49.4% "Yes"). In 2009, when asked "Do you believe that Quebec should become a country separate from Canada?" 34% replied yes, 54% said no, and 13% were unsure, though in that same poll, only 20% believed that Quebec would ever become a separate country.

Will independence ever happen for these groups? I tend to doubt it. With these smaller nations in particular, I'm not certain it would even work out all that well financially. And yet, it is plain enough that there are sizable portions of people who want to be autonomous, and perhaps with good reason too.

Savayan Oct 10 '12 4:34pm

Can't really speak for the others, but in the case of Quebec what they want in practice is to trade being a Canadian province with becoming a Canadian Protectorate. They still want us to defend them, and as a natural extension of that they also give over control of their foreign policy to us if they do succeed. It's mostly a matter of them being able to instate some cultural laws that our Charter doesn't quite let them do.

Atlictoatl Oct 10 '12 5:26pm

To my knowledge, the only precedent the world has for states seceding from their former countries is civil war. I don't think anyone has yet found a reason other than violence and/or civil disobedience that would compel a nation to allow a portion of it to remove itself.

I could see a future that was comprised of smaller states with a relational sense of national unity, but I'm not aware of any organizing principle anyone has yet thought of that would allow that to come to pass peacefully.

That said, I would expect someone somewhere has thought of some, so please do share if you know of any.

silveroak Oct 10 '12 5:34pm

Ever is a very long time, and the OP did not rule out civil war as a methodology- though there have been other ways that indpendance has been achieved- generally when empires collapse some regions wind up being essentially abandoned. Also the British Empire granted sovreignty to several of its old territories such as canada and Australia...

TW Teczka Oct 10 '12 5:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlictoatl (Post 6169558)
To my knowledge, the only precedent the world has for states seceding from their former countries is civil war. I don't think anyone has yet found a reason other than violence and/or civil disobedience that would compel a nation to allow a portion of it to remove itself.

More recent:

From neighbouring for me countries I can mention Slovakia - they gained independence from Czechoslovakia in perfectly graceful and peaceful way. Though I'm still unsure what for...

Also I can mentioned other secessions that happened relatively peaceful - most of dissolution of the SU, or Slovenia and
For all Greeks - sure, I mean FYROM
Macedonia leaving former Yugoslavia.

Savayan Oct 10 '12 6:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlictoatl (Post 6169558)
To my knowledge, the only precedent the world has for states seceding from their former countries is civil war. I don't think anyone has yet found a reason other than violence and/or civil disobedience that would compel a nation to allow a portion of it to remove itself.

Belgium, Norway, Canada, all those former Soviet Republics... No one really remembers the peaceful cases since they're so much less dramatic.

Muggie2 Oct 10 '12 8:29pm

Following the collapse of a patchwork state (the USSR or, the Spanish Habsburg Empire for example), or by granting first autonomy then independence (the British Empire to almost every part of it) are known examples of non-violent transition. When territories have been taken (such as German colonies after WW1), it is a lot easier to give them independence because they were never really perceived as part of the original state.

Wippit Guud Oct 10 '12 9:43pm

Geez... South Sudan became independent last year, peacefully. Granted, they have their own issues now, but the independence itself was peaceful. It happens more commonly than you would think.

I can see Scotland going, assuming they remain a commonwealth country. I'm unfamiliar with Catalonia.

I don't see Quebec ever leaving. If they did, it would ruin their economy pretty much in an instant.

BlackPhoenix Oct 11 '12 1:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wippit Guud (Post 6170585)
I don't see Quebec ever leaving. If they did, it would ruin their economy pretty much in an instant.

How so?

Savayan Oct 11 '12 1:35am

Google 'Canada' and 'Equalization Payments'.


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