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Civil discussion and debate on real world events and issues.


Libya consulate attack

   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savayan View Post
I'm not condoning the action, but at the same time I will not defend the right of a bunch of bigots to kick hornet's nests with impunity.
Totally agree. You can't kill Americans just because some other Americans offended you. Those religiously intolerant bigots who stormed the embassy should be called to answer for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savayan View Post
At the end of the day though, it is a pretty significant issue for Muslims. I'm not condoning the action, but at the same time I will not defend the right of a bunch of bigots to kick hornet's nests with impunity. While the blood is on the hands of this currently nameless militia, the film makers had to have know that something like this would happen. I can't absolve them of at least a portion of the blame.
I agree. For me it's very similar to a case when a human which is supposed to be bright provokes a savage animal. Sorry, it's the human job to behave responsibly. One can't put high expectation on the animal. (other thing aside, shooting (or not) the animal because its aggressive and poses threat is in that case more a matter of pragmatic choice and not a moral dilemma; let's call my stance so far a conservationist)

@Ultima: Except even the US has laws against things like fighting words. And here in Canada and other countries that don't have a fetishistic reverence for free speech, it definitely could fall under the category of hate speech. And given past experience, I think we can safely conclude that ridiculing Mohammad qualifies for both in certain segments of the world. What's the point in supporting bigotry if we know from empirical evidence that it will lead to real physical harm? This sort of thing is the geopolitical equivalent of shouting 'FIRE!' in a crowded theatre.

And to be honest, from what I've read, that's exactly what they're aiming for with this thing. It's intended to stir up violence in the Arab world. Given it's backers, I think that they intended it to happen in Egypt, but I don't think they feel particularly guilty if it's an action that makes their particular hated group look worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Ben View Post
Totally agree. You can't kill Americans just because some other Americans offended you. Those religiously intolerant bigots who stormed the embassy should be called to answer for this.
I agree. They should be hunted down and brought to justice. They are murderers. But at the same time, the people that actually made this should face some sort of real consequence for their actions of deliberate incitement as well. Because this attack wouldn't have happened if they hadn't made the film and put it up. Regardless of how guilty or innocent the actual perpetrators are, the fact is that the actual inciting incident is not in their hands. See my above comment about Fighting Words.

Freedom of speech is either absolute or nonexistent.

If some militant free speech guy murders some Canadians because you suggested free speech isn't as important as he thinks it is should you get tossed in jail for offending him?

Making fun of religion shouldn't be illegal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Clamantis View Post
Freedom of speech is either absolute or nonexistent.
Libel. State secrets. Yelling 'Bomb!' in an airport.

I guess it's nonexistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savayan View Post
@Ultima: Except even the US has laws against things like fighting words. And here in Canada and other countries that don't have a fetishistic reverence for free speech, it definitely could fall under the category of hate speech. And given past experience, I think we can safely conclude that ridiculing Mohammad qualifies for both in certain segments of the world. What's the point in supporting bigotry if we know from empirical evidence that it will lead to real physical harm? This sort of thing is the geopolitical equivalent of shouting 'FIRE!' in a crowded theatre.

And to be honest, from what I've read, that's exactly what they're aiming for with this thing. It's intended to stir up violence in the Arab world. Given it's backers, I think that they intended it to happen in Egypt, but I don't think they feel particularly guilty if it's an action that makes their particular hated group look worse.
Don't forget that the movie wasn't just a criticism of Muhammad, but also a criticism of how Egyptian security forces stood by and allowed an angry mob to ransack the homes and churches of Copts. It should also be noted that not the whole movie was dubbed into Arabic and broadcasted, just an incredibly offensive part. That being said, I disagree that anything that can be considered offensive should be censored.

Should the people who made the film be punished? Sure, they should be ridiculed on the Daily Show, scolded by Fox News and be featured on Tosh.0
As for the people who assaulted a US embassy- people who prefer guns over lawyers deserve execution over being awarded millions in libel money.




 

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