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Civil discussion and debate on real world events and issues.


Libya consulate attack

   
That's what you get when governments leak info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savayan View Post
That'd be up to a judge, really. But seeing as it was released onto the internet rather than being kept on a DVD in the back of someone's closet, I'd say they weren't exactly trying to keep it a secret. Remember, not all Muslims, or even most Muslims are monolingual in Arabic. They weren't really trying to hide this, and simply not saying it in their language doesn't automatically absolve them of blame.
True, but I believe that with the idea of "fighting words" that the message being delivered needs to be targeted a bit. There's a word of difference between putting something on the internet as opposed to sending DVDs to mosques.

True, but I'm using it as a general concept to try and get you Americans to accept that you already have provisions in place to limit speech, and to bring up the idea that it's already legal doctrine that speech can constitute an attack. Here in Canada we could probably just get the film maker under Hate Speech laws and call it good. But of course Americans value free speech over public order so it's a tough sell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savayan View Post
But of course Americans value free speech over public order so it's a tough sell.
We also value it over tyranny and censorship.

When it comes to making something offensive into hate speech you're giving all the power to the person willing to commit violence when offended instead of to free speech. Just because you're far more likely to be murdered for mocking Mohammed than you are Jesus doesn't make this any more hate speech than your average edgy movie or South Park cartoon or evolution/creationism forum topic. He didn't incite violence towards anyone.

The various restrictions on Free Speech are when your words are intended to cause harm or threaten harm. It also has to be imminent. Saying "We should storm Libya's embassy and choke their ambassador for this" on the internet (I'm not suggesting we do) isn't a crime, saying it to protestors in front of the Libyan embassy is a crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedronai View Post
So, an unidentified source making unverifiable claims. Sweet.
Ask and you shall receive a link.
I just highlighted his text and dropped it in a search engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Ben View Post
Saying "We should storm Libya's embassy and choke their ambassador for this" on the internet (I'm not suggesting we do) isn't a crime
Can you provide evidence for this claim? Because I seem to recall a case or two in the past few years where internet discussions were charged as incitement and/or other variations on 'limitation of free speech'.

What Lord Ben said. I've watched the video, and after watching it, yes it is meant to be offensive, but it isn't any more harmful than the parodies of christianity and any other religion that exist in countless numbers, but hardly any of those videos could be seen as hate speech. If they made a movie about Mohammad being decapitated or something else incredibly horrible, then maybe there'd be some sort of grounds for hate speech, but this is harmless.

On free speech, yes I, and any other American in this thread are well aware of hate speech and the laws that pertain to them in the US Sav. As Lord Ben has stated, we simply value it more than censorship, the idiots that made the video will have to deal with the social consequences of their actions but if we are going to claim their idiocy is hate speech, then we're going to have to place charges on millions of people who have more or less done the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedronai View Post
Can you provide evidence for this claim? Because I seem to recall a case or two in the past few years where internet discussions were charged as incitement and/or other variations on 'limitation of free speech'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech#United_States

The "reason why fighting words are categorically excluded from the protection of the First Amendment is not that their content communicates any particular idea, but that their content embodies a particularly intolerable (and socially unnecessary) mode of expressing whatever idea the speaker wishes to convey."[59] Even in cases where speech encourages illegal violence, instances of incitement qualify as criminal only if the threat of violence is imminent.[60] This strict standard prevents prosecution of many cases of incitement, including prosecution of those advocating violent opposition to the government and those exhorting violence against racial, ethnic, or gender minorities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
Ask and you shall receive a link.
I just highlighted his text and dropped it in a search engine.
And yet I'm having great difficulty finding that excerpt in the article you linked...


@Lord Ben
that's not really the claim that I was asking evidence for
what I'm asking for is evidence that internet conversations directly advocating violence against a specific target by definition do not and can not qualify as inciting imminent violence, and thus 'fighting words', or, for that matter, any other crime, as you claimed in the quote I was responding to

I'll clarify a bit, the distinction isn't whether or not the threat is online, it's whether or not the threat is imminent. My example of this in action was an online statement compared to people protesting in front of an embassy. IE, words only compared to words with a very real chance of violence attached.

But even so, nothing he said incited violence. It wasn't "Hey, we should kill them". It was just saying something someone found offensive, which isn't inciting violence.

Imagine an alternate USA where crimes against homosexuals were far more common. Where Gay Pride parades are subject to drive by shootings, etc. Would it be hate speech to hold a gay pride rally? Of course not! It's no more hate speech to violate one religions rules (images of the prophet Mohammad) as it is another.





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