Worldly Talk

Civil discussion and debate on real world events and issues.


Naked Muhammad (now there's a catchy title)

   
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Originally Posted by Secutor View Post
You will be outbred and outnumbered in a few generations unless you close your borders.
Assuming we accept this claim in turn, what follows from here?

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Originally Posted by Tedronai View Post
Assuming we accept this claim in turn, what follows from here?
Actually, one of our politicians suggested decreasing child money/allowance in our capital for exactly that reason.

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Originally Posted by Secutor View Post
So just because of one silly religion with indeterminable "truth" and unobservable claims regarding sky wizards, the rest of the world should yield?
I don't understand people.


It is so bloody hard for people just be nice to each other? Do we have to insult an entire religion by blatantly mocking a symbol of their religion? Do we have to attack someone's race by putting on white hoods and burning crosses?

Why can't people just act responsibly with the freedoms that they have?

How does an influx of Muslims threaten us with extinction? Aside from teh occassional terrorists they are not trying to kill us, so it isn't litteral extermination. If they recognize the civil rights of the host country then many children will convert away from Islam just as many children convert away from teh christianity of their parents today. Even if we become a more predominantly Islamic country, how does that threaten what we are as Americans provided our core social values remain in place?
Also, as i have mentioned elsewhere, the population of the US is larger than the population of teh entire middle east, so if they are planning to "invade through immigratin" it would have to be a very long term plan and they would be loosing to the Chinese at this point...

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Originally Posted by Wippit Guud View Post
It is so bloody hard for people just be nice to each other?
Free speech isn't there to protect nice speech. Nobody doesn't want to hear nice things. Free speech is there to protect those who mock and criticise. In that regard: yes, in an advanced society that holds progression dear it's downright impossible to be "nice" against everybody. As a matter of fact, muslims are hardly the most victimized group of "not nice speech". Richard Dawkins, for example, has a reputation for depiciting Christians as intellectually lazy and superstitious (he even went so far as to say that Francis Collins, the head of the human genome project, isn't intelligent because he believes man was created by God and that John Lennox, an Oxford professor of mathematics, is a man masquerading as a scientist because he believes Jesus turned water into wine). What was the reaction of the Christian community to this? Some Christians ignore him, others write books about why he's wrong and yet again others challenge him to debates and explain him why he's wrong and allow him to retaliate. This is how a civilized society handles people who aren't "nice", not by silencing them through any means necessary.

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Originally Posted by silveroak View Post
How does an influx of Muslims threaten us with extinction?
I'm not saying that I share his point of view, but I believe he fears that the influx of muslim immigrants combined with the fact that immigrants have more children per family than western natives will eventually drive the western natives to extinction.

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Originally Posted by Wippit Guud View Post
Do we have to insult an entire religion by blatantly mocking a symbol of their religion? Do we have to attack someone's race by putting on white hoods and burning crosses?
I'm sorry, but I just love how you equate criticism of a religious figure and his deeds to lynching. Personally I think equating hurtful words to the attempts to systematically exterminate an entire racial group is the most offensive thing I've heard so far in this thread, even worse than all the harmful things said about Islam. And guess what? I'm not going to kill you for this, because I respect your right to say what you believe as long as you allow me to point out why your beliefs are wrong.

Well the most directly offensive thing in this thread was actually when you called Islamic countries uncivilised and barbaric, but hey you are the one taking the moral high ground here so I'll let you decide.

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Originally Posted by Kaeso View Post
This is how a civilized society handles people who aren't "nice", not by silencing them through any means necessary.

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Originally Posted by Gygaxphobia View Post
Well the most directly offensive thing in this thread was actually when you called Islamic countries uncivilised and barbaric, but hey you are the one taking the moral high ground here so I'll let you decide.
If you wish to call a country where religious minorities are routinely killed purely for being religious minorities, where embassies are burned because the countries that own the embassies published 'offensive' material within their own territory that's in no way related to the muslim countries, where genital mutilation is common and where women aren't allowed to leave the house on their own, let alone get their drivers license civilized then be my guest, but I consider that an insult to countries that can actually be bothered to acknowledge basic human rights. In the words of Aristotle, there's nothing so unequal as treating unequals as equals.

I found an interesting article the other day that argues that the so-called "Muslim Rage" is a product of political entrepreneurism without any strong historic or even religious basis.

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Originally Posted by Kaeso View Post
If you wish to call a country where religious minorities are routinely killed purely for being religious minorities, where embassies are burned because the countries that own the embassies published 'offensive' material within their own territory that's in no way related to the Muslim countries, where genital mutilation is common and where women aren't allowed to leave the house on their own, let alone get their drivers license civilized then be my guest, but I consider that an insult to countries that can actually be bothered to acknowledge basic human rights. In the words of Aristotle, there's nothing so unequal as treating unequals as equals.
Sorry to say, but yes in their eyes they are civilized. The way you put it the Mormons would also be considered uncivilized. Their beliefs are strong enough that it changes the way they live their lives. So you take a Muslim and ask why is your prophet so important. Your going to get a very direct explanation, he is their holy messenger. This would be the same as one of the Muslim nations producing a movie showing Jesus to be a womanizer and beating up little kids. There are a lot of Christians that would attack the nearest mosk because of it. Now some of them might not directly attack them, but you can be absolutely sure that they would verbally attack them, they would go out of their way to make the area unwelcoming to any Muslim. The local church groups might demand the mosk be removed due to any number of slights(imagined or not), you can also bet that the Christian community would start causing problems for the mosk. Do you see the correlation. There violence is a way of life, here it is not. So when they react with violence, that is the way of things over there. Look at how long most of the Arabic nations have been fighting either each other or internally or just defending themselves from some "civilized" nation that wants their land.

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Originally Posted by Silverthorne View Post
Sorry to say, but yes in their eyes they are civilized.
And in their eyes we'd be uncivilized. So we're resorting to moral relativism then? We can take this discussion that way, but that's a very slippery slope.
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The way you put it the Mormons would also be considered uncivilized. Their beliefs are strong enough that it changes the way they live their lives.
Ehrm.....no. Mormons are in no way a threat to our day to day lives, even when they live in the same country as some of us, and they generally respect basic human rights. You can't extrapolate what I said to Mormons, Jehova's witnesses or any other minority religion. As a matter of fact, Mormons are generally known for being hard working and having relatively low crime rates. Some of us might say that they think their doctrines are weird, but nobody would say they're dangerous. As a matter of fact, compare the level of scrutiny Mormons in the US get in the mainstream media to the scrutiny Muslims get in the US. It almost makes me wonder why they haven't blown up the Washington monument yet.
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So you take a Muslim and ask why is your prophet so important. Your going to get a very direct explanation, he is their holy messenger. This would be the same as one of the Muslim nations producing a movie showing Jesus to be a womanizer and beating up little kids.
You mean sort of like Life of Brian? Or one of the hundreds of other Christian parodies that have been produced? If the deepest, most intimate convictions of Christians, or any other religious group for that matter, aren't safe from scrutiny then why should Islam be an exception?
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There are a lot of Christians that would attack the nearest mosk because of it.
Believe me, if there are Christians in a country with a significant number of mosks they are more likely to be persecuted than persecute others. One of the worst situations imagineable must be being a Coptic Christian in contemporary Egypt.
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Now some of them might not directly attack them, but you can be absolutely sure that they would verbally attack them, they would go out of their way to make the area unwelcoming to any Muslim.
Yes, because verbal scrutiny is so comparable to physical assault and terrorism, right?
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The local church groups might demand the mosk be removed due to any number of slights(imagined or not), you can also bet that the Christian community would start causing problems for the mosk.
This hardly even happened after 9/11, how do you think this will happen when Muslims make Life of Brian 2.0? Even the ground zero mosk wasn't considered a problem purely for being a mosk in New York, but being a mosk near ground zero, so that is the worst kind of grand scale "persecution" Muslims can expect in the west under the worst circumstances. If this was the worst that happened to Jews in Iran, they'd consider life there paradise compared to their current situation.
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Do you see the correlation. There violence is a way of life, here it is not. So when they react with violence, that is the way of things over there. Look at how long most of the Arabic nations have been fighting either each other or internally or just defending themselves from some "civilized" nation that wants their land.
And that's exactly why I don't consider them civilized. In the West and many non-Western areas of the world (Latin America, East-Asia, Russia, India etc.) we have accepted for quite a while now that throwing a tantrum isn't the way to solve your differences. This is something the muslim world must also learn.

We must accept that the muslim world, as it is now, is a threat to our civil rights and liberties. This means we have to make a choice between being "nice" and forfeiting out civil liberties for the sake of people that aren't even part of our social contract or make clear that we will not bend the knee to them and defend the rights our forefathers in all Western nations have fought and died for.




 

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