Anyone looking to run mid to high level gestalt?

   
I love multiclassing. I love spending hours pouring over the Internet and books just to find a combo. I guess that makes me a power gamer?

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Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
How about the "clever fighter" archetype
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Warblade does that by default.
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Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
a tactical master who has a high Int as well as a high Str?
Warblade.
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Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
Ranger gives you a bunch of skills, but that only really means you don't actually need much Int in the first place.
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Warblade. With skill knowledge. And the Ranger doesn't give you much "clever" skills at all. Same goes to fighter.
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Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
However, going to Warblade gives him Int to Reflex and tactical manoeuvres like White Raven ones.
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Yes, warblade.
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Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
However, going to Warblade gives him Int to Reflex and tactical manoeuvres like White Raven ones. So, if I want to play a smart Ranger, Ranger/Warblade seems like a great choice.
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Warblade with Two-weapon Fighting. Since you're planning of multiclassing, I don't think you'd want the animal companion and wild empathy anyway.

Please stop beating around the bush and tell me the exact stats/feats/skills/flaws of the Ranger4/Fighter2/Warblade2 and explain why a simple Warblade8 cannot replicate it. This discussion involves crunch, and since you put that class combination into the pedestal, I expect you to specify it's exact load out so we may examine it.

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Originally Posted by Zelkon View Post
I love multiclassing. I love spending hours pouring over the Internet and books just to find a combo. I guess that makes me a power gamer?
As a fan of Final Fantasy Tactics, I always loved multiclassing. But there's a big difference between combining two themes together from dipping in all prestige classes to get immunity to everything.

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Originally Posted by Atomic Dog View Post
And despite what people try to claim (the rules themselves included), gestalting is taking two builds and smooshing them together. Hence the shorthand of "Warblade 20 || Wizard 10/Incantantrix 10" versus "Warblade-Wizard 10/Warblade-Incantatrix 10."
No, that's just a different ruleset. The latter is probably more accurate if you do use the original UA rules; of course, there are different versions which have their own pros and cons.

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Originally Posted by Atomic Dog View Post
Are you saying you really need more than that to make an interesting and fun character? Why do you need some two-level class dip in order to be interesting ... ?
No, nobody "needs" it, I'll give you that (at least, not a lot of the time, but I'm not going to go in to when I might). However, why would you need to ban it? The flip-side begs to be considered too - why do you need to be single-classed to make an interesting character?

Given that most games here are application-based, I would think that a DM would be able to pick up anything which is obviously exploitatious and ask the applicant to alter it. If someone can put together a character who is interesting, makes sense, and isn't too cheesy, then they should get to be considered rather than having them cut out because of some arbitrary limitation.

Remember that flavour is somewhat mutable. Sure, you could call me odd backstory just an excuse to play some multiclassed abomination, but then is it really the backstory you care about or the build? This is what I'm getting at with the Fighter/Warblade thing. Fighters and Warblades are basically the same, or close enough that their fluff can be merged. Given that, the only reason to prefer a Fighter 8 or Warblade 8 to a fighter 6/Warblade 2 is because of the mechanics, not the fluff, in which case you're defeating your own object (it's like so-called "positive" discrimination).

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Originally Posted by Secutor View Post
Please stop beating around the bush and tell me the exact stats/feats/skills/flaws of the Ranger4/Fighter2/Warblade2 and explain why a simple Warblade8 cannot explicate it.
Warblade doesn't get as many skills points as the Ranger, nor Knowledge (Nature), (Geography) or (Dungeoneering), Heal, Handle Animal or Survival... all those signature Ranger skills. He'd have to spend two of his 3-4 feats on Track and Two-Weapon Fighting or Rapid Shot. He can't use scrolls and wands of mystic Ranger-lore spells.

Meanwhile, the Ranger doesn't get the heroic manoeuvres an Aragorn-like swordmaster might want or the Uncanny Dodge that a cunning hunter might want.

Given that the Warblade is a pretty versetile class, perhaps he can explicate it. However, you need to have just as much reasoning behind all those feats and features as you take to do so as you do to multiclass, so how is the weirdly-built Warblade better than a Ranger with a Warblade dip?

I still don't get how anyone can call mixing a fighter+anything as powergaming.

If you want to power game, you only have to look as far as "PHB, Druid, 20". There. Congratulations. You can now solo any level appropriate encounter. That wasn't hard at all, was it?


Where your fighter-ranger-warblade-factotum-maybe a litte swashbuckler for fun (concept- obviously a fast moving heavy hitting character- Hiten Mitsurugi style)... might be a match against said druid for about three rounds before getting stomped.


So, really, who's the power gamer here? You can't create something legit (defined as no cheating and nothing theoretical) that holds up against the primarily spellcasters without BEING a primary spellcaster.

Sure, if you're quite clever, you might create something that could beat one more often than not in a straight fight. But it wouldn't also be able to be a healer. And a blaster. And a battlefield controller. And a noncombat utility character.

So what's the point in crying about some frankenstein assembly of classes and features when a "pure" character is already born superior and there ain't anything you can do about it without burning out the half of the game's core rules entirely?


Fluff and flavor can, and SHOULD, be re flavored as befitting the character concepts. If you don't like the mixed classes, just think of it as a single custom class that mechanically follows every rule and borrows only abilities possessed by other classes instead of contributing new ones of its own.

And/or a lot of remodeled ACFs. The game's MEANT to be customized. Players and GMs were ENCOURAGED from DAY ONE to modify classes. That's all a kitchen sink character does... a modified class.

It's not a "weirdly-built" warblade as Martial Adepts seem to build themselves with their Manuevers and Stances. Able learner handles all the cross-classed feats. And even then, How many feats does it take to replicate Aragorn?

If Two-Weapon Fighting, Track and a few skills is all you want from the ranger side, Why make it four levels and make the martial adept the dip? Even then, you can just grab Human Paragon to fix your skill points. Or do a TRUE multiclass and spread evenly between Factotum and Warblade. Speaking of multiclassing, why not just go with Ranger4/Warblade4? I'm beginning to think there's this one specific maneuver that you want from Warblade and it's the ONLY reason you dipped to the class.

So.... What is that one maneuver that you won't tell me?
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Originally Posted by TanaNari View Post
Where your fighter-ranger-warblade-factotum-maybe a litte swashbuckler for fun (concept- obviously a fast moving heavy hitting character- Hiten Mitsurugi style)... might be a match against said druid for about three rounds before getting stomped.
Scout 20 with Skill Knowledge (Iaijutsu Focus). Or just Factotum 20. Admit it; You just want the Factotum8 for the Cunning Surge. Look at me straight in the eye and say "Factotum8 just for Cunning Surge is not powergaming." Because I love the Factotum and seeing people abandon it after 8levels like a cheap [Person in the sex trade] disappoints me.

Could you guys move this disccussion into the gaming discussion forums? You all have gotten way off the topic of 'is anyone willing to run a mid-to-high level gestalt game?'

If I wasn't already about to start one game, recruiting for another and about to put together the foundations of a oWoD game, I'd personally take a crack at it. I may be an idiot and try to put it together anyways, but it would be about a month from now before I throw the ad up.

I don't even know what cunning surge does. Never played a factotum. Not my style. Then again, strikers aren't my style. I'll do the occasional stealth type, and even those are kinda meh.


I like having versatility and clever tricks without having to dig through 18 sourcebooks just to get them. I like options without the pain in the ass effort other players have to go through to get decent melee characters. So... I tend to play straight casters.


You might create a scout. Fred might create a frankenstein. I'd create a cleric (or maybe favored soul- they've got some awesome tricks). Give it travel domain. Break out a little divine metamagic for haste and a few other buffs. And then *ignore everything else a cleric can do*.


Boom. Now I've got my striker. Until I get bored with that setup. Then I'll spread out my features and do party buffing. Then a little later I'll decide I feel like blasting a while. Then I'll decide I want to tank. Why? Because I can.

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Originally Posted by Reemos View Post
Could you guys move this disccussion into the gaming discussion forums? You all have gotten way off the topic of 'is anyone willing to run a mid-to-high level gestalt game?'

If I wasn't already about to start one game, recruiting for another and about to put together the foundations of a oWoD game, I'd personally take a crack at it. I may be an idiot and try to put it together anyways, but it would be about a month from now before I throw the ad up.
Yes, forgive us. But the matter must be resolve before the fire dies out.

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Originally Posted by TanaNari View Post
I like having versatility and clever tricks without having to dig through 18 sourcebooks just to get them. I like options without the pain in the ass effort other players have to go through to get them. So... I tend to play straight casters.
Then why aren't you playing a Factotum? It's simple, versatile and can spontaneously pull off [name of animal][material released] on the spot with absolutely no prior preparation. You can replicate any role as the situation calls for it and have no problems with cross-class skills, since they don't exist to you. And the entire Wiz/Sorc spell list is KNOWN to you.





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