Worldly Talk

Civil discussion and debate on real world events and issues.


Is political punditry tearing apart the nation?

 
I bet Fox would host it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
That kind of thread? You mean the kind you tirelessly pollute with a vapid 'minority report' of foreboding anecdotes that have questionable merit/relevance, and prognostications of liberal doom without meaningful statistics to actually back anything of what you say up on a macro scale? I don't think the causation for my response or its tone is in any way a mystery. Make arguments with verifiable large scale facts, not alarmist microcosms no one here can possibly disprove or challenge, aside from pointing out the obvious that exceptions aren't the rule.
Surrealistik, you've been going after Lord Ben pretty hardcore in recent threads, and it's making it difficult to have discourse with people with strongly divergent views. I realize that you've stopped considering engagement with him to be discourse, but you're coming across as trying to shut down his participation in these threads through personal attack. That doesn't feel good to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muggie2 View Post
As if any combat involving morningstars is going to be to anything other than the death, especially when chariots are added.
Love those things, but they are nasty nasty weapons!
Shhh. The contestants might not realize that if we don't tell them.


~*~

From a PM exchange that I have permission to post publicly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlictoatl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Ben
What I was going to point out was that there is a pithy little saying of "more speech is the solution to bad speech." IE, when someone says something wrong the best remedy is to counter it rather than prevent it from being said.

Where it originates: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...4_0357_ZC.html

Quote:
Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence. Only an emergency can justify repression. Such must be the rule if authority is to be reconciled with freedom. [n4] Such, in my opinion, is the command of the Constitution. It is therefore always open to Americans to challenge a law abridging free speech and assembly by showing that there was no emergency justifying it.
Let the liars lie, just call them out on their lies vocally.
That's both an interesting and highly valid point.

My concern is that "our" two camps often miss each other's commentary, or shrug it off as biased. I listen to very few sources, so people pointing out the lies of my sources will be missed by me. Similarly, folks getting their news from Rush Limbaugh and FOX will miss out on folks calling them out.

But you're right. It's the only real solution, short of some sort of draconian crackdown. I personally would have liked it if the courts had ruled that FOX News had to change its ways, though I can accept that the further-reaching consequences of such a decision may very well have been ones I'd be unhappy with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlictoatl View Post
Layoffs may have been an inevitability regardless of who was elected, a function of economic reality. Things may be worse for coal under Obama, and the CEO may even legitimately lay the need for immediate layoffs at Obama's feet.
http://investing.businessweek.com/re...capId=22595942

Quote:
Murray Energy Corporation reported production results for the third quarter of 2012. For the quarter, the company reported six mines increased production by more than 6%, or 343,387 tons, from the second quarter, rising to nearly 5.8 million tons. Murray's third-quarter production also was strong compared to the year-ago period, when those reporting mines produced 4.5 million tons, about 1.2 million tons less than in the most recently ended quarter. Murray's New Future and New Era mines in Illinois led the output increase during the third quarter. New Future increased production from the second quarter by 259,633 tons to 1.2 million tons. New Era increased production by 249,990 tons to 1.6 million tons.
Why is he laying people off again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlictoatl View Post
Surrealistik, you've been going after Lord Ben pretty hardcore in recent threads, and it's making it difficult to have discourse with people with strongly divergent views. I realize that you've stopped considering engagement with him to be discourse, but you're coming across as trying to shut down his participation in these threads through personal attack. That doesn't feel good to me.
I don't find what I post to be personal attacks so much as mostly accurate observations in light of what he's posted recently. If he takes umbrage or objection to that, fine; it's no less than what I feel whenever I see his nonsense sophistry. The difference between actual ad hominem and an attack on the things he says is fairly obvious and explicit; my posts that concern him, barring perhaps immediately after the election where emotions ran high, are confined to the latter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wippit Guud View Post
Why is he laying people off again?
Because he's bitter, and making absurd predictions consistent with his political biases.

Increasing production in the past doesn't have much to do with it if the long term prospects are dim. Plus the article you linked said it was increased in 6 mines.... they own 8 mines and he laid people off at 2 of the 8 mines leaving 6 as is.

But Atlictoatl's larger point is about media hysteria. If I am to understand the timeline right, he worked his way up starting at 16 mining coal to become CEO of a Mining company before being terminated then he invested in his own mine and grew from 1 small mine to
"Murray Energy Corporation produces approximately 30 million tons of bituminous coal each year and employs approximately 3,000 people in the United States. In addition to its mining operations, Murray Energy owns and operates river, truck, and rail terminals on the Ohio River; a rail loadout facility in Central Utah; and a diesel and mining equipment rebuild facility in West Virginia."
this. Then he saw something on FOX that had some political hyperbole so he laid off 5% of his workforce? I don't find it very likely that he's making business decisions based on something he saw on the nightly news. He likely has accountants telling him the same thing that I hear from the accountants I know.

I do, however, find it likely that the reports over the last year plus about how bad it's going to be for businesses and their employees with all these regulations were ignored and dismissed as simple political spin. As a result of the ignoring people will be surprised when the hammer drops and we drop back into recession (or our recovery simply continues to be weak) even though there was ample warning.




 

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