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There is a table (page 61 of the DMG) that has the a breakdown of what is easy/moderate/hard DCs, and the PHB states that DCs should vary depending upon level...

I think basic skill ideas (like swinging from a chandleer) move from hard -> medium -> easy -> no roll required as you gain levels, while things like skill challenges become more difficult as you gain levels (thereby representing the fact that it is still a challenge.

At least, that's my reading of it. The task difficulty should be called into question as whether it is difficult enough to warrent a skill roll for your current level, and if so what difficulty is it.

I would be inclined to vary the DC based on who is trying to do it... That frail old wizard might find chandelier-swinging to be a more challenging task (with a higher DC) than a fighter would.

That destroys the whole idea of skill training, ability modifiers, and DCs. Everyone is supposed to hit the same DC, because that's a measure of how hard it is. Since you're essentially giving Fighters a bonus on Acrobatics, how are you going to rebalance the wizard? An extra bonus on Arcana?

Err...shouldn't that be represented by the difference in their skills? Not a difference in the DC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnistar View Post
There is a table (page 61 of the DMG) that has the a breakdown of what is easy/moderate/hard DCs, and the PHB states that DCs should vary depending upon level...
I think I see where the confusion is coming in. A "hard" DC for a 20th level character is going to be higher than a "hard" DC for a 10th level character. Okay, I see that. So you have easy, moderate, and hard challenges in every game, but it is more than the DCs that are different. Yes, the easy climb in a 10th level game as a lower DC than the one in the 20th level game, but that's also because the climb itself is more treacherous in the 20th level game. Two characters attempting to perform the exact same feat still have the same DC to overcome, even if they have a level disparity, right?

It is like monsters, easy monsters for a 10th level character have a lower AC than easy monsters for a 20th level character. However, when facing the same monster, the two characters have to overcome the same AC. Is that how skill DCs work?

Quote:
I think basic skill ideas (like swinging from a chandleer) move from hard -> medium -> easy -> no roll required as you gain levels, while things like skill challenges become more difficult as you gain levels (thereby representing the fact that it is still a challenge.
Okay, so the cliffs you have to climb become steeper, the waters you have to swim more chaotic, etc. The DCs are changing, but (I'm hoping) so is the nature of the encounters.

So, the way I am understanding it (with fingers crossed) is that when someone says "DC is based on level" they mean that the numerical value of easy-to-hard is based on the level of the character, not that a specific obstacle's DC varies based on the level of the character attempting to overcome it.

Two characters attempting to climb the same cliff have the same DC, but that cliff may fall into the category of "easy" for one character and "hard" for another because of that character's level.

That is how I'm ruling it.

And the PHB says that skill checks should only come up if it isn't an 'ordinary' manuver.

So your 1st level character can walk up a steep incline no check, your 10th might be able to climb up a wall with a knotted rope and your 30th can just walk up a sheer cliff.

Because those activities are ORDINARY for that level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnistar View Post
There is a table (page 61 of the DMG) that has the a breakdown of what is easy/moderate/hard DCs, and the PHB states that DCs should vary depending upon level...

I think basic skill ideas (like swinging from a chandleer) move from hard -> medium -> easy -> no roll required as you gain levels, while things like skill challenges become more difficult as you gain levels (thereby representing the fact that it is still a challenge.

At least, that's my reading of it. The task difficulty should be called into question as whether it is difficult enough to warrent a skill roll for your current level, and if so what difficulty is it.
Once again, Amnistar, I think you've arrived at a brilliant interpretation of a confusing rule. Thanks! I'm definitely using this!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SocraticCoaster View Post
I think I see where the confusion is coming in. A "hard" DC for a 20th level character is going to be higher than a "hard" DC for a 10th level character. Okay, I see that. So you have easy, moderate, and hard challenges in every game, but it is more than the DCs that are different. Yes, the easy climb in a 10th level game as a lower DC than the one in the 20th level game, but that's also because the climb itself is more treacherous in the 20th level game. Two characters attempting to perform the exact same feat still have the same DC to overcome, even if they have a level disparity, right?
A cautionary mention, here: This interpretation works well for the DM who designs adventures based on PC level, but that is only one method of designing adventures. For those DMs who design adventures based more on a realism model, it's rather absurd to think that the only people attempting to scale the highest cliff imaginable are Epic Characters.

Put the cliff on another plane, with planar features that make it a DC 38, and I'm in.

It's curious that the table on DMG p. 42 quotes different values than the table on DMG p. 61. They seem to be delineating the same situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlictoatl View Post
A cautionary mention, here: This interpretation works well for the DM who designs adventures based on PC level, but that is only one method of designing adventures. For those DMs who design adventures based more on a realism model, it's rather absurd to think that the only people attempting to scale the highest cliff imaginable are Epic Characters.

Put the cliff on another plane, with planar features that make it a DC 38, and I'm in.
I'm not really following what this has to do with what I was saying. Are you saying DCs should be determined differently? What does it have to do with "[thinking] that the only people attempting to scale the highest cliff imaginable are Epic Characters"? And what does it have to do with "[designing] adventures based on the PC level" rather than "on a realism model"? You sound like you had something important to say, but I'm not really seeing what it is.

EDIT - I think I'm starting to understand, but I disagree. What I just proposed works just as well for a "realistic" adventure (i.e. one created without any consideration of those who may be running it?) as those planned around the level of the characters. All encounters would have a DC independent of level considerations. Anyone capable of surmounting that DC--through the right equipment, spells, skills, character level, and/or sheer luck--would succeed. A DC that would be high for a low level character might be low for a high level character, but that doesn't mean only high level characters could accomplish it or that they would be the only ones attempting to do so.

You are right, my comment isn't specific to what you were saying, SocraticCoaster.

I should have quoted this section only from your earlier comment:

Quote:
[...] but that's also because the climb itself is more treacherous in the 20th level game.
My point is in reference to something I read today in the DMG (cannot find it to properly reference the page number) suggesting that encounters be built to the level of the PCs, the memory of which was triggered by this phrase of yours.

In reference to that misplaced DMG comment, while it is very true that chasms that require a DC 30 to cross successfully will be very frustrating for a level 5 party, to suggest that such a chasm should not appear in a level 5 adventure doesn't allow for the type of adventure- and world- design that stems more from versimilitude than from perfectly balanced design.

Sometimes the party runs into a Level 20 encounter because there is a Level 20 monster/ruin/treasure sitting in the middle of the Forbidden Forest. If characters ventured there despite all warnings and foreshadowings that it might be beyond their ability, so be it. As a DM, I'll give them opportunity to escape and lick their wounds and come back when they are more able to survive it, but a world that only possesses Level 20 challenges when the players are ready for them is too much like a computer game that scales solely as characters do, and a living world just isn't that linear.

That's my point, and I'm not knocking the world- or adventure- design that does emphasize scaling at the same pace as the characters, merely acknowledging that not every DM adheres to that design philosophy.

With regards to the post of yours that I quoted, I think you have the idea of Amnistar's firmly in hand. A cliff is a cliff. You determine the DC to climb the cliff, based on the difficulty of the cliff irregardless of who wants to climb it. Per DMG p. 61, a DC 30 cliff is Hard for a Level 11 character, Moderate for a Level 19 character, and Easy for a Level 28 character.

I think the difficulty for us as DMs is in describing what distinguishes a DC 24 cliff from a DC 34 cliff. What is it about the cliff that would challenge a Level 28 character in ascending the latter, but not in ascending the former? if you are simply designing an obstacle for your players, cross-reference their level with whether you want the obstacle to be Easy, Hard, or Medium, and arrive at the DC you should assign. If you are more concerned with describing the cliff, assign it a DC first and then present it to your players, who will need to figure out how to deal with it.

The piece that Amnistar described that changed my perception is this:

Swinging on a chandelier may be a Hard challenge for a 1st-level character, but it wouldn't be for a 20th-level character. So one way of addressing the table on DMG p. 42 is to look at the DC values for a 1st-3rd level character and decide that swinging on a chandelier, generically, is DC 18 (subject, naturally, to situational modifiers). That becomes a Moderate challenge for 7th-9th level characters, and an Easy challenge for 13th-15th level characters.

Versus the interpretation The Firkraag heard elsewhere that swinging on a chandelier, generically, was supposed to scale in DC as character level scaled, which is a tough interpretation to accomodate.




 

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