Varient Cleave, Great Cleave, and Mighty Cleave setup. - OG Myth-Weavers

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Varient Cleave, Great Cleave, and Mighty Cleave setup.

   
Varient Cleave, Great Cleave, and Mighty Cleave setup.

Alot of people in some groups ive been in receintly have been horribly (in my mind) abusing the Great Cleave feat. And worse yet,the dm's allow it. Basicly, ive been working on a way to make great cleave effective, yet limiting its 'scope' of omgwtfhax power.

Cleave [General, Fighter]
You can follow through with powerful blows.
Prerequisites: Str 14+, Power Attack, base attack +1.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (Typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon, and at the same attack bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can only use this ability once per round.

Great Cleave [General, Fighter]
Your blows are so mighty, you can follow them threw even if the enemy is still standing.
Prerequisites: Str 15+, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack +3.
Benefit: When you would attack a creature, you do not need to have it drop to get your extra melee attack against another creature within reach when using the Cleave feat. You still cannot make a 5-foot step before making the extra attack.

Mighty Cleave [General, Fighter]
Your attacks are mighty, and you have learned to apply enough force while swinging widely to let you strike foes further then you could normally hit.
Prerequisites: Str 16+, Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, base attack +6.
Benefit: When using the cleave feat, you may make a immediate 5-foot step before making the extra attack. If you make a 5-foot step before the extra attack, you deal an additional +1d6 damage for that attack if successful.


Thoughts? My idea was keeping it realistically to 2 enemys max you can hit, but giving them more leeway on how to use it. Making it especially more useful when fighting 2 or more 'tougher' enemys that cant be downed so easily, such as golems, etc. Sweeping strikes, much? :3 The 3rd feat was taken from some prestige class's class features, such as frenzied barbarian, etc from complete warrior, so that you dont have to multiclass for that extra 5-foot move.

Ive seen it abused 2 ways in the last week.

1: Someone i know had a level 4 halfling fighter with 14 strength, great cleave and a greatsword and managed to run into a group 6-7 enemys, and managed to get a lucky critical hit one one, and the rest followed suit with power critical in his arsenal.

2: This was broken in all ways you can possibly imagine it, and the dm of this game mightve well just flushed his dmg/phb down the tiolet. He allowed a barbarian to great cleave an entire swarm. -_- Nough said.

I think mass-killing abilities like that need at LEAST a higher requirements to them, like 16 strength or so or a larger bab bonus needed. Or, at the very least, a better dm/guidelines on using it. :-/

Limiting it to once a round solves the problem. Looks good enough to me. I never played 3e but even I heard about Great Cleave being broken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylean View Post
Ive seen it abused 2 ways in the last week.

1: Someone i know had a level 4 halfling fighter with 14 strength, great cleave and a greatsword and managed to run into a group 6-7 enemys, and managed to get a lucky critical hit one one, and the rest followed suit with power critical in his arsenal.

2: This was broken in all ways you can possibly imagine it, and the dm of this game mightve well just flushed his dmg/phb down the tiolet. He allowed a barbarian to great cleave an entire swarm. -_- Nough said.

I think mass-killing abilities like that need at LEAST a higher requirements to them, like 16 strength or so or a larger bab bonus needed. Or, at the very least, a better dm/guidelines on using it. :-/
TBH, as far as I can tell, they're pretty fine as is. The situations you cite are someone getting lucky, and someone blatantly cheating, what with swarms being immune to weapon damage and all...

It's feats like Great Cleave that stop the fighter being entirely useless, IMHO.

1: Not sure how that really follows the rules. You roll a 20 against the first one, crit the second, and do normal damage against the rest.

2: Isn't that a problem with the GM, not with cleave?

In any case, I'd say that this version is more powerful. Melee classes aren't really that great at taking out multiple units, which is more easily done with mages. Great Cleave essentially lets you attack an extra time per full attack, and Mighty Cleave lets you take ten foot steps. Just five-foot step, full attack a nearby ferret, take another five-foot step, cleave the enemy, dump the rest of your attacks on him. Or better yet, full attack the enemy, step back, cleave the ferret, and step back again. Then the enemy has to spend a move-action closing in and can't full attack back.

Well, THB, im not asking you to rate the core cleave feats, im asking for input on these three. If i wanted a review on the core ones, i would have asked. It does not matter what makes me think their broken, i am working on new ones for my future games and that is what i am wanting reviewed. Sorry to sound bitchy, but im not in the mood to listen to people pick apart the 'whys' im doing it.

Also, your mistaking Mighty Cleave dakar, it allows you to USE YOUR NORMAL 5 foot step for that round between cleaves, not grant you an 'extra' one for the round. Aka, full attack one enemy, 5 foot step, finish on another.

Also, you can make criticals on multiple targets hit by great cleave. Its a "immediate extra attack made against them", it follows all normal rules for attacking. So if you roll 20 on your first attack, it only uses the same -attack bonus- for the next attacks, allowing you to roll to confirm criticals on every single extra one you smack. Which, allows for some explosive burst damage on a lucky roll.

If you're making changes to your feats that aren't by and large nescesary what else do you want to hear? Sorry to sound rude, but if that's your approach why put it up here. Besides "We agree" what else are we supposed to say?

Also, I'm pretty sure your/your DM's reading of the rules is wrong. Even if it isn't common sense rules, and that's an easy fix. I've yet to see a single DM read them that way.

Edit: In fact, I know you're reading is incorrect. it says: "An immediate extra melee attack" This implies that you go through the whole process again, regardless of the circumstances you've presented. There is nothing to imply anything to the contrary.


If you want them, a few things:

A: Massed mooks are stupid. If you play your enemies dumb, they will always die. Period. Really, the argument should end there, but since you aren't the DM to decide in all cases, that is not a certain thing, so:

B: Mooks are less efective as foes at higher levels, and the fighter has many better choices for feat combinations. Also, see A. In any case, mooks cease to be a chalenge at high levels. Great cleave removes a pointless element of the combat process.

C: Ability score prerequisites are bad if you really do feel the need to houserule the feats. It's a very artificial and generaly arbitrary limit on feats, PRCs, etc. BAB prerequisites to control the level would suffice.

D: Fighters suck after 4th level anyway. Throw them a bone for God's sake.

E: If I've not convinced you, with all that, a perfectly sane solution would be to up the BAB requirement on great cleave 2 or 3 points. This removes it from low level play. The only time it would be a potential issue.

Well, in the 'mooks' defense they were attacking a -halfling- in a chain shirt with their equivalent to a longsword, and they were all humans. I mean, so sue them for underestimating the little sob you know? They were running towards the group when the halfling ran back into them suicide-like. ._. Honestly, nobody saw it coming.

Also, if you bothered to read my version of the feats at all, you would have seen ive made them more effective for higher levels. But, -shrugs-, lets talk how the core feats are perfect more, shall we? x.x

I don't see the level based effect increases?

The core feats aren't perfect by any means, but cleave isn't the problem. Especialy not when compared to cheese like natural spell or persitant spell.




 

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