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Another Stealth Rule Question

   
Another Stealth Rule Question

This is basic stuff but I'm DMing a tabletop 4e game for the first time and I find, even with the errata, I'm a little hazy on the stealth rules. Could someone help me get a grasp on them?

1. Can a character who begins a round hidden, then attacks, use a move action to hide in the same square they in which they were already hidden? Are they hidden from the object of their last attack?

2. Where is the line between Superior Cover/Cover and Complete Concealment/Concealment? For example, one of my players is playing a goblin ranger and in our last game I allowed total cover behind a rainbarrel, from which the character sniped and rehid for several rounds. Was I correct in allowing that or did I miss something? If I was incorrect, what can I tell this player is the best way for her to use stealth in combat?

Thank you for your help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Firkraag View Post
This is basic stuff but I'm DMing a tabletop 4e game for the first time and I find, even with the errata, I'm a little hazy on the stealth rules. Could someone help me get a grasp on them?

1. Can a character who begins a round hidden, then attacks, use a move action to hide in the same square they in which they were already hidden? Are they hidden from the object of their last attack?
Not really... Movement gets tricky here. If the goblin was hidden behind Superior Cover, he has to move before he can attack. Move, attack and ... oops. He still gets Combat Advantage for the attack, but attacking causes him to be noticed. He may still have Cover or even Superior Cover in relation to his opponents, but having attacked he is no longer hidden.

On his next turn, he could use his Move action to duck back behind the Superior Cover and a Standard Action to try to hide.

Remember, this is D&D, not WoW. Stealth is not invisibility. It can be used to great advantage, but it takes time. Movement makes it harder, running makes it nearly impossible. One thing I find helpful when trying to adjudicate Stealth is to remember that rogues (arguably the masters of Stealth) have the option to pick At-Will Utility powers to negate certain penalties:
  • Fleeting Ghost (Level 2 Utility) allows them to move their speed and make a Stealth Check with no penalty. They still need Superior Cover or Total Concealment, however.
  • Chameleon (Level 6 Utility) gives you a second chance to stay hidden for a bit after losing Cover or Concealment.
  • Shadow Stride (Level 10 Utility) gives the opportunity to move between bits of Superior Cover and not be noticed during the move.

Basically, what you describe above would require a Level 6 rogue with the Chameleon At-Will Utility power (I think). Here's how I think it would work:
  1. Rogue is hidden. This requires Superior Cover. We'll say he gets it from his rain barrel.
  2. He pops out from behind his rain barrel and attacks. This normally causes him to lose his "hidden" status.
  3. As an immediate interrupt, he triggers Chameleon and makes another Stealth Check. If successful, he remains hidden until the end of his next turn.
  4. On his next turn, he must move behind cover and re-hide or he will be immediately noticed (per the Chameleon power).
  5. Rinse, repeat.

Without Chameleon, the goblin would get noticed automatically after his attack.

Quote:
2. Where is the line between Superior Cover/Cover and Complete Concealment/Concealment? For example, one of my players is playing a goblin ranger and in our last game I allowed total cover behind a rainbarrel, from which the character sniped and rehid for several rounds. Was I correct in allowing that or did I miss something? If I was incorrect, what can I tell this player is the best way for her to use stealth in combat?
First, review the difference between Cover and Concealment. Cover is something physical which makes it difficult to effectively attack. Concealment is a visual effect that doesn't limit the physical aspect of an attack, but makes it difficult to see to properly target.

The Player's Handbook has this to say on the subject of Cover:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHB, p280
To determine if a target has
cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or
a corner of your attack’s origin square) and trace
imaginary lines from that corner to every corner
of any one square the target occupies. If one or
two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an
enemy, the target has cover. (A line isn’t blocked if it
runs along the edge of an obstacle’s or an enemy’s
square.) If three or four of those lines are blocked but
you have line of effect, the target has superior cover.
I think a goblin - or any other Small race - would be able to gain Superior Cover from a typical rain barrel. In fact, the illustration of Cover on p281 sort of shows this (see attachment). There's a goblin in the upper-right corner next to a statue. He has cover from the burst attack, but would have Superior Cover if he were behind the statue.

Concealment is a bit harder. p281 takes nearly half a page to detail the relationship between obscured squares, distance, and concealment.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg cover.jpg (24.8 KB, 0 views)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMorganes View Post
Basically, what you describe above would require a Level 6 rogue with the Chameleon At-Will Utility power (I think). Here's how I think it would work:
  1. Rogue is hidden. This requires Superior Cover. We'll say he gets it from his rain barrel.
  2. He pops out from behind his rain barrel and attacks. This normally causes him to lose his "hidden" status.
  3. As an immediate interrupt, he triggers Chameleon and makes another Stealth Check. If successful, he remains hidden until the end of his next turn.
  4. On his next turn, he must move behind cover and re-hide or he will be immediately noticed (per the Chameleon power).
  5. Rinse, repeat.
What about Deft Strike? That power allows you to move 2 squares before the attack (as part of the attack, i.e as part of the character's standard action). So,
  1. Rogue is hidden with Superior Cover from the rain barrel.
  2. He uses Deft Strike to pop out and attack all as a standard action
  3. He uses his move action to pop back behind the barrel, under cover
  4. Make another Stealth check at the end of his move action

That should work, because the movement takes you out of Superior Cover. Interestingly enough, you're also still hidden from any monster who doesn't have line of sight on you in your new position, or if you have cover in your new position, with the exception of the guy you just sniped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sithobi1 View Post
You can't use an immediate action on your own turn, so DrMorganes's chain doesn't work.
Good catch, Sith!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aust Meliamne View Post
What about Deft Strike? That power allows you to move 2 squares before the attack (as part of the attack, i.e as part of the character's standard action). So,
  1. Rogue is hidden with Superior Cover from the rain barrel.
  2. He uses Deft Strike to pop out and attack all as a standard action
  3. He uses his move action to pop back behind the barrel, under cover
  4. Make another Stealth check at the end of his move action
Would that work? Popping out from behind the barrel is fine, but doesn't his attack break stealth? Also, it seems to mimic Shadow Stride a bit too closely... Thoughts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMorganes View Post
Would that work? Popping out from behind the barrel is fine, but doesn't his attack break stealth? Also, it seems to mimic Shadow Stride a bit too closely... Thoughts?
Shadow Stride requires no Stealth check, correct? This should work. I like it, as it also allows you to dart between bits of cover that are up to 4 squares apart.

Actually, Shadow Stride does require a stealth check. If you make it, you remain hidden during your movement.




 

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