What do your players fear? - OG Myth-Weavers

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What do your players fear?

   
What do your players fear?

I was thinking a little on that classic (and pointless) argument about what classes are the most powerful. This is usually taken in the context of one PC vs another PC in some kind of arena or something.

But that basically never happens.

So I started thinking about the battles we are actually veterans of in RPGs, specifically in D&D and Pathfinder.

As GMs, we regularly throw challenges of various types at groups of usually well played PCs of various classes, who's skills often compliment each other, and who are each fighting like their lives depended on it. They tend to have a decent (though not optimized) array of magic items at their disposal. Our NPCs don't usually last too long.

Yet, what kind of encounters seem to strike fear into the hearts of your players? Monsters with certain abilities count, but I think this is an interesting way to show how your players react to certain NPC classes as well.

Number crunching aside, what classes do your players want to take out first? Who commands their attention?

This aside, what classes actually have the most effect against your groups?

I wanted the question to have its own post, but here's my experience:

My players fear spell casters. There can be four warriors and a single wizard in the room, and without knowing anything about any of them, my players will tend to target the wizard first.

I've seen all classes be effective against the heroes in my games though. Skilled warriors seem to do the most actual damage to them, which I think is partially their staying power brought about by high AC and HP, and partially their relatively high attack bonuses.

We just ran an attack of all rogues (actually ninja, since its Jade Regent, but still) and though they didn't last too long once the fight was actually joined, the sneak attack damage they dished out in the first round was pretty crazy. I've also used rogues as great henchmen for wizards. It's very hard to tee off on a spell caster if that means turning your back to a flanking rogue.

One thing I'd like to try more often is putting an enemy cleric with the bad guys in a support role. You don't see this very often in games for some reason. I had a priest in a fight a while back, but the party barbarian got to her too quickly for her to do much.

As far as a balance thing goes, the current party I'm GMing for is very melee heavy, with a barbarian, a ranger, a white-haired witch tricked out for battlefield control, and a druid. They tend to absolutely shred squishy opponents like spellcasters. The only way to keep them alive long enough to work their magic is to defend them with more resilient allies.

I'm with you that PCs often go after (what they perceive to be) Casters first. Perhaps not entirely unwisely nor 'out of character' in most cases.

Also that clerics can be a tough foe. Evil cleric with Channel Negative Energy who harmed the PCs. Who was invisible - well, it was magical Darkness so didn't only last the one round. That put out a lot of hurt. With only one (flying) 'henchman' so to say. That swooped down (maybe was a dire bat, so didn't need to see).

That was an experience I've had. I've always thought an Evil Cleric (especially if Undead) at like 3rd or 5th level. With some decent Undead henchmen. Could be tough. Does have to choose to harm living or heal its undead minions. But still. Could end up playing 'higher than it's CR' fairly easily I would think. Depending.


Anything non-human.
They're so used to parleying with humans (since I swap out humanoids for humans in the vast majority of cases) that a creature that cannot be reasoned with is actually reason for them to fear now.

Enemy classed characters. I use a Death & Dismemberment table for classed characters (as opposed to just regular 0-level humans) which makes enemy characters mad resilient.
That and I try to use enemy classed characters in ways that show the players how useful the different powers and stuff are, which is scary.

The new group haven't experienced level drain yet but the old group feared that the very most.
Nothing like the threat of level drain to keep PCs out of the crypts.

-My players gained a dose of respect and fear when they're fighting Hellknights in the Council of thieves. I upgraded their tactics to include to make a beeline towards the enemy healer then performing a Coup de grāce on them if they even caught a whiff of a secondary healer. Since the last thing they want is to fight the person they just dropped(it also had the great effect of making my cleric player actually contemplate his moves).

Along with that barbarians and any two handers had to deal with halberd wielding HKs trying to disarm them or outright tripping their sorry bums while another Hellknight tried to slap some manacles on them.

Funny thing happened when the rogue didn't pull out quickly enough so I played the bad boys song when he tried to run and failed to tumble past the guards(Police brutality ensued)

-My players also fear vampires...especially the charismatic PCs that aren't Paladins.

-They're scared of ogres after the Rise of the Runelord episode.

-For obvious reason whenever my players ever figure out which enemy is a spellcaster/divine spellcaster they immediately commence bombardment.

Always cautious of spellcasters.

Terrified of any "Properly" played, intelligent creature.

and scared of any DM built encounter (as in class lvls etc) a squad of frenzing barbarians with a bard warweaver in the back is terrifying.

Scared of any foe that is more concerned with killing people than downing them, ones who focus fire.

Scared of any monster that can stagger-chain stuns/debuffs and generally make it so the party can't do anything.

The most terrifying monsters in D&D...

The Rust Monster is definitely up there.

Cubes, oozes, Bebeliths, they're in a similar boat.

The worst have to be the Nishruu and Hakeshar, though. Those things give me nightmares!

I agree with Fred. Of them all, I'd rather face a dragon than a Gelatinous Cube. At least, with a dragon, you might roll a natural 20 on diplomacy and be sent on a mission for the wyrm or something. But a cube, ooze or rust monster? Just kiss your ass goodbye and call it a day.

Quote:
Terrified of any "Properly" played, intelligent creature.
This. Honestly, the most terrifying monsters are the ones that are used well. Kobolds, played intelligently, can give people nightmares forever.

Let's give a few examples of how you can ramp up essentially the same encounter (Drow that revere Vulkoor that use vision tricks against a level 3 party):

Easier: "Okay, in the room there are a bunch of generic stat block drow, and a Medium Monstrous scorpion, no doubt a spawn of Vulkoor. They cast Darkness on you and fire hand crossbows at you!"

e.g. the DM is not using the monsters right, and the monsters aren't very strong. The drow are actually giving you concealment against their ranged attacks, while you can still hit them just fine. Also, they're only using hand crossbows... why are they using hand crossbows if they're not infiltrating or something? Just because the default drow entry said they use hand crossbows, that's why!

This actually happens a lot. It makes encounters a pushover for anyone with a modicum of strategic awareness and a basic understanding of the rules (in fact, a smart player can probably breeze through a campaign like this with an NPC class). Expect this in games where you hear DMs raving about how Tome of Battle is "obviously overpowered" and that "Fighters are just as good as Wizards" or otherwise demonstrate a basic lack of understanding of mechanics or strategic awareness. I've also seen players do this a lot... including cases where players do significantly more damage to themselves than the actual enemies do!

Easy: "Okay, in the room there are a bunch of generic stat block drow, and a Large Monstrous Scorpion, no doubt a spawn of Vulkoor. They use Darkness for cover, hide, and fire their hand crossbows at you! They hold their swords in their off hand, ready to follow up on their initial volley with blades."

e.g. the DM just kinda threw together a few random unmodified entries from the MM and didn't think too much about how they could be used to their tactical potential. Still, a large monstrous scorpion can hurt you, and he's not using Darkness wrong, and even though they're still using hand crossbows for some reason, at least they're taking advantage of the fact that it can be used one-handed with no penalty now.

This is a common case when the DM understands the basics of the rules, but isn't interested in giving the players a real challenge. They will often have the mindset that players should not actually ever die (facing only the illusion of threat), and / or they will dislike the idea of customizing creatures or having monsters act strategically and leave them with silly things like Toughness and just march them at you. These players just want to enjoy the story and /or hit punching bags, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Medium: "As you enter the room, you come face to face with the drow priestess riding a Large Monstrous Scorpion, who with a shout commands her swarm of vermin to attack! When you try to hit her, your sword passes through the illusion harmlessly... and your movement left you vulnerable to her counterattack!"

e.g. enemies are a bit more interesting and clever and/or have better stats. Also, things aren't being given ridiculous feats like "Toughness" all the time. Players are at genuine risk if they don't think through their actions. A common case for more experienced groups.

Scary: "Chasing after your charmed comrade who was suggested to join her new friend on venturing deeper into the dungeon, you rush through the corridor hoping to get to her before she has a chance to come to harm. Before you, there is a dragonborn drow priestess / bard. As soon as they come into sight, you hear the heavy clank of a lever and the turning of gears, and an iron guillotine smashes through the corridor masonry, cutting you off from your companions with a wall of iron. The priestess begins a hymn about the doom of all those who would oppose drowkind, and her weapons come alight with dragonfire. She caresses your charmed comrade, and raises a flaming knife behind her back. Charging in to help, you immediately find yourself running straight onto the point of a spear... 3 Vulkoor-spawned mutant berserkers, with weapons of draconic fire, hiding behind a silent image! You find yourself alone, poisoned, battered from attacks of opportunity, surrounded, and prone, and they raise their weapons with sadistic grins on their deformed faces."

e.g. enemies are smart and are built well. This (or the category after this) is the kind of game that will come up when people who would fit the "Brilliant Planner" player incentive type in the DMG II come together, or might show up in games that usually have "Medium" encounters as a boss fight or wham episode. A common case for groups that understand optimization and appreciate strategy more complex than "I kick in the door and roll initiative!" and are comfortable with the potential for losing.

Scarier: As hard, but "The drow priestess is also riding a Large Monstrous Scorpion again (with barding), in addition to having the berserkers in the room, and she's wielding a lance and heavy steel shield now. Is that a Rhino Rush spell she's got there?

Dismissing the silent image that lured you to your death, a changeling mercenary sorcerer takes on your appearance and prepares to rejoin your comrades when they come through the wall, and the drow play dead or vanished with another illusion. She strips you of your possessions, handing out the choice bits of equipment to the appropriate allies, who happily drink your potions and read your scrolls in preparation for the rest of your allies."

e.g. enemies are devious, use teamwork, and have good stats, and have about as much respect for your plot armor as the cast of A Game of Thrones. At this level, basic kobolds will send weak-willed players fleeing in sheer unbridled terror.

This is what you get when you have a creative, experienced DM that understands practical optimization and strong players that are thrilled by the idea of a real challenge or their eyes sparkle at the idea of matching wits with a character like Tywin Lannister.



Additional cases:

Arbitrary: You live or die more by the DM's fiat than by the value of anyone's tactical choices. You succeed when the DM lets you succeed, and you fail when the DM lets you fail. Rolls are commonly fudged.

This is a perhaps worryingly common case, and is often a result of inexperienced or incompetent DMs. However, sometimes it isn't. In these cases, this difficulty is applied subtly, often with intentions similar to those in "Easy," save that death sometimes occurs for "dramatic" reasons. In this case, the players might never actually notice that their rolls don't matter. Even if they do, they might happily accept or even support it.

Impossibru: The DM decides you will die, and therefore you do. Game over.

This is a common case when people piss off a DM sufficiently and things are not resolved through more mature means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlinmc View Post
But a cube, ooze or rust monster? Just kiss your ass goodbye and call it a day.
Oh no, it's so much worse than that. Kiss your gear goodbye and call it a day. What's the dragon going to do, eat you? The rust monster will EAT YOUR MAGIC SWORD damnit!




 

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