Biblical Contradictions/Inconsistencies - OG Myth-Weavers

Notices


Worldly Talk

Civil discussion and debate on real world events and issues.


Biblical Contradictions/Inconsistencies

 
Biblical Contradictions/Inconsistencies

Quote:
And ticattack - I believe you should try putting those ideas to the test. Talk through your ideas on the "scam" of Christianity. Ask people who understand the Bible to show you how what you see as 'contradictions' are not so...or if they are, watch them see that too.
And so, I am here.

Here are the ground rules:
  1. You cannot use any personal experiences or revelations to support your arguments. I don't give a damn if Jesus came and had morning tea with you, 'cause I don't know that.
  2. You cannot fall back on "because I believe in God", or anything like that. That's not fair, because those debating against Christianity have no such inpenetrable (and infuriating) defense.
  3. If you say something as fact, I want a quote from the bible. For ease of copying, go here. I believe it was said that the King James version was commonly used? So that will be the "default", but if something is said in at least three English versions on that site, then it can count.

    If you say God forbids drinking, tell me where it says that. If you say he forbids priests from marriage, tell me where it says that. List all quotes with a number, like John 3:16 or whatever.
  4. Statements issued by the Vatican or whatever do not count, as they are mortals. I'm aware the bible has been warped by mortals throughout the years, but assuming that it was originally God's word, it's a best a source as we have.
  5. We are approaching this from the angle that God does exist, and that the bible is fairly accurate when it comes to what happened. If Christians cannot use "because I believe", then we cannot use "the bible is wrong on this point".
  6. By the same token, neither can the pro-Christian debaters. The bible is the bible. You cannot take some parts as God's word, and claim others are crap, unless there is some form of proof that it's garbage.
  7. We proceed under the assumption that God sees and knows all.
  8. Keep it civil. This is not a place for opinions and rants, it is place for discussing inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. If your only input is "Christianity's stupid", bugger off. I want rational arguments and discussion, not flaming - please, I'm sure we can manage this for once, right?





Problem the First
God sees all. And yet in numerous instances -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis 3:8-11
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis 4:8-10
Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
"I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"

The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
he asks questions that he already knows the answer to. I have heard the excuse before in relation to Cain/Abel that God was giving him a chance to fess up. Why? He already knew he wouldn't.

By the same token, how can he (fairly) punish Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit when he made it "good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom" (Genesis 3:6). He also apparently made the serpent, as he'd made everything, right? Knowing that the serpent would deceive them, why not simply not make him?

We have several possible scenarios here. Either:
  • God is bound by some rules or guidelines, and had to include the snake,
  • God is a tormenting sh*t, and was toying with Adam and Eve,
  • God was testing their loyalty. Why? He already knew what the answer was.



I'll come back later and add more. Right now, I need to shower. Hvg, religio-zealots and atheists alike, have at it.

Quote:
he asks questions that he already knows the answer to. I have heard the excuse before in relation to Cain/Abel that God was giving him a chance to fess up. Why? He already knew he wouldn't.
God gives us free will. He gave Cain the chance for the right response. It's the same like in my case. God knows how I'm gonna end up but he gives me the opportunity to actually behave so. God doesn't judge us on what he knows we would do but on what we did.

Quote:
By the same token, how can he (fairly) punish Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit when he made it "good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom"
In order for the man to love him and to choose to love him, God had to give them a choice - a choice to love him and follow him or to disobey him. That is only where true love lies. Not in following because there is no other choice, but because there IS other choice.

They both had a free choice of following or disobeying God. Him knowing their choices doesn't actually effect their choices. He doesn't predetermined their choices, he just knows them.

Quote:
He also apparently made the serpent, as he'd made everything, right? Knowing that the serpent would deceive them, why not simply not make him?
The serpent was Satan so he didn't make the serpent. But yes, he made Satan. However, the answer to this lies in my previous paragraph. He gave them a choice to love him or not.

Quote:
God was testing their loyalty. Why? He already knew what the answer was.
Almost, but I woudn't call it testing. Anyways, the answer to the why part was already given to you above.

Quote:
The serpent was Satan so he didn't make the serpent. But yes, he made Satan. However, the answer to this lies in my previous paragraph. He gave them a choice to love him or not.
Speaking of contradictions... He made Satan, and Satan is the serpent, so he didn't make the serpent?

Also, can you show me where in the bible it says that the Serpent was Satan? Not saying it's not there, but I couldn't find it.

Quote:
Speaking of contradictions... He made Satan, and Satan is the serpent, so he didn't make the serpent?
No, I didn't say that he Satan = serpent, I merely suggested that Satan revealed to Adam and Eve as a serpent.

Quote:
Also, can you show me where in the bible it says that the Serpent was Satan? Not saying it's not there, but I couldn't find it.
No, it's not there. Good point. That's the common interpretation since we know Satan's role. Perhaps it was a different fallen angel. *shrug*

I would like for someone to point me in the relavent directions for the story of Satan, and his fall.

I like this One thing, though. I personally never use the KJV, as it is *not* the best version.

The most accurate version is the English Standard Version (ESV), but part of its accuracy is that it keeps a lot of the Greek ambiguity in place. Thus, a rather confusing read at times. I would instead recommend using the NIV, which is an up-to-date good translation (no old english), and whilst not as spot on as the ESV, it is much easier to understand. But, the best thing todo would be quote various versions, to get a better understanding of what the actual Greek might mean. Apart from that, the rest of the rules sound great!

On #4, the Bible is not as 'warped' as you would think. Over the last 1500-1800 years, the changes in it have been incredibly small, and do not affect doctrinal issues at all.

Also, it would be preferable to give links than to quote, partly for accuracy, but mostly because quoting quotes usually cuts them out

And finally, can we stick to one "contradiction" until it is dealt with? If it cannot be dealt with, there is no reason to move onto others. And if we have multiple ones going, i would get confusing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ticattack
Problem the First
God sees all. And yet in numerous instances -
Genesis 3:8-11
Genesis 4:8-10
he asks questions that he already knows the answer to. I have heard the excuse before in relation to Cain/Abel that God was giving him a chance to fess up. Why? He already knew he wouldn't.
OK, so I think the problem here is why does God ask questions to which he already knows the answer. And part of the reason is what you have already anwered. God is giving a chance for people to fess up, for people to apologise, to repent. God is patient with us, as he wants us all to come back to him. (2 Peter 3:9, for example) Even if he knows that we are not going to, he still gives us the option. After all, if he didn't, we would probably say "Hey, you didn't even give us a chance to say sorry!" The way that God acts means that we know full well where we stand before him.

Also note that in each of these verses, God asks questions which point out exactly what is wrong.

He asks Adam and Eve where they are - which highlights the fact that they are hiding, and reveals their sin. Likewise, he asks Cain after his brother - Cain answers "Am I my brother's keeper?"...the answer is yes. He should look out for his brother, but instead, he was envious of him, and killed him. Again, God's questioning brings out Cain's sin.

So, I cannot really see a contradiction here. If you still see one, you may need to explain it further.

Quote:
By the same token, how can he (fairly) punish Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit when he made it "good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom" (Genesis 3:6).
Well, that could be said for anything...why is sex outside of marriage wrong? Surely most of the people who pariticpate in that enjoy it? At least some what?
Basically, just because something is enjoyable does not make it right. Some of the more violent and disturbing crimes commited are commited by those who enjoy what they do...it doesnt make it right.

I would also like to point out that in the whole 'snake' saga (specifically Genesis 3:1-5), the snake starts out by lying. God did not say "You must not eat from any tree in the garden". This is followed by a lie from Eve - God did not say "and you must not touch it, or you will die". Finally, another lie from the snake - "You will not surely die". So, there is a lot of trickery going on there. It well may be that Eve simply believed in herself that the fruit was good for food...she decided it for herself.

In the end, the important thing is that, good or not for food, tasty or unpleasant, what she did was to disobey God. That was the sin. That was what they were punished for.

Quote:
He also apparently made the serpent, as he'd made everything, right? Knowing that the serpent would deceive them, why not simply not make him?
Snake = Satan
Revelation 12:9 and Revelation 20:2. God did not create him evil, but, like us, he had the option of choosing.

Quote:
We have several possible scenarios here. Either:
  • God is bound by some rules or guidelines, and had to include the snake,
  • God is a tormenting sh*t, and was toying with Adam and Eve,
  • God was testing their loyalty. Why? He already knew what the answer was.
So, to your points:
  • God did not have to include the snake. The snake included himself. God created him, but not as he is now.
  • No, not true either
  • Testing loyalty? No, he did not ahve to do it. Satan wanted God to fall. He failed at that. So now he wants to see God fall as much as possible - which he did by making God's people fall.

Quote:
I'll come back later and add more. Right now, I need to shower. Hvg, religio-zealots and atheists alike, have at it.
but do try to keep to one point at a time You could add links to future points, from the first post, if you wanted to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by summoner
No, it's not there. Good point. That's the common interpretation since we know Satan's role. Perhaps it was a different fallen angel. *shrug*
actually, it is links posted above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnistar
I would like for someone to point me in the relavent directions for the story of Satan, and his fall.
best parts are in Revelation, where it...reveals...that sorta stuff
Chapters 12 and 20 (where the previous quotes were from) are probably the best, but I can search for some more, if you like?


Ticattack, what were the quotes from 1 Chronicles 21 and Job 1 & 2 for? Try searching the entire Bible for "satan or devil or lucifer", even throw in serpent there, but you will get a lot of atual plain non-taking snakes too. Maybe its a KJV thing...

*searches*

Nope, its in there too. Revelation 12:7-9, ala KJV

One question on your claim, hvg, about the depth of deception occuring in the 'snake saga'.
Quote:
This is followed by a lie from Eve - God did not say "and you must not touch it, or you will die".
Does/must the bible reveal all of God's actions by direct exposition? Is it impossible that the reader be required to take one character's word for actions involving other individuals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ticattack
Also, can you show me where in the bible it says that the Serpent was Satan? Not saying it's not there, but I couldn't find it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summoner
No, it's not there. Good point. That's the common interpretation since we know Satan's role. Perhaps it was a different fallen angel. *shrug*
In Hebrew mythology, the snake is not Satan (as Jews don't believe in Satan), but Lillith, Adam's first wife.




 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Last Database Backup 2024-03-19 06:45:13am local time
Myth-Weavers Status