Riots in London - Page 13 - OG Myth-Weavers

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Worldly Talk

Civil discussion and debate on real world events and issues.


Riots in London

 
Quote:
Can you show me a car that does not require any fuel to be burnt, is usable in most modern-day environments and can go as far as one with a combustion engine?
Can you show me a reason to drive 500 miles a day? A reason that isn't easily solved by change of lifestyle?



What about an electric vehicle? What about better infrastructure?

If we re-routed some money to better electric vehicles, we could stop buying cars every five years and destroying them and the environment in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
What about an electric vehicle? What about better infrastructure?

If we re-routed some money to better electric vehicles, we could stop buying cars every five years and destroying them and the environment in the process.
That's all good points. But hardly directly relate to Riots in London.

I suppose I was connecting the two simply because of the global attention of the london riots. Its everywhere. Not just the news coverage, but the conversation.

All riots are serious, and this one seems to be slightly worse than the rest. Are the riots over?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
Can you show me a reason to drive 500 miles a day? A reason that isn't easily solved by change of lifestyle?
So you're saying that people took to looting shops and burning homes out of outrage at the lack of vehicles which they, with their current lifestyles, can't even use? If it were such a big deal to any of them, I'm sure they'd first change their lifestyles and then demand vehicles that fit into them, not first get the vehicle and then turn their lives upside down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
I can show you a car that doesn't require fuel to be burnt and can drive across the united states. Its called a horse, and a couple bushels of hay is purty darn cheap.
I'm sure you could hike across the US, too, provided you have a few months to spare. If I want to spend my holidays in Italy, however, it's really nice to know I don't spend all my holidays trekking over the Alps on a mule first in one direction, then on the other, without having enough time to see anything.

Not to mention, a horse requires more than 'a couple bushels a day'. Let's talk stabling and maintenance, for instance. For a horse, you need a stable, which is cleaned out regularly, preferably something of the order of magnitude of once a day. You need to know how to ride a horse, how to take care of a horse, and how to interpret the horse's needs and wishes. This is all not cheap, this is all time- and labor-intensive.
Most people in the Western world don't have that problem. What does a car need? A piece of land in front of you and a mechanical checkup every couple of months. Full stop.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
What about an electric vehicle? What about better infrastructure?
Electric vehicles will not need fuel to be burnt when we have all switched to renewable or nuclear energy. Until then, they still work on combustion. It just happens to be done in another place. The same is true of hydrogen cars, by the way.

Better infrastructure is not in the "sovereign government"'s hands. It's in the hands of companies. Unless you mean all those recent riots in communist states where all large infrastructure is in government hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
If we re-routed some money to better electric vehicles, we could stop buying cars every five years and destroying them and the environment in the process.
I would like to see evidence that electric cars would have a longer lifetime than combustion engine ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikul View Post
So you're saying that people took to looting shops and burning homes out of outrage at the lack of vehicles which they, with their current lifestyles, can't even use? If it were such a big deal to any of them, I'm sure they'd first change their lifestyles and then demand vehicles that fit into them, not first get the vehicle and then turn their lives upside down.
I was drawing a connection, never once did I say "These people need a better vehicle, clearly, otherwise they just might continue pillaging the countyside."

Quote:
If it were such a big deal to any of them, I'm sure they'd first change their lifestyles and then demand vehicles that fit into them, not first get the vehicle and then turn their lives upside down.


?

Quote:
I'm sure you could hike across the US, too, provided you have a few months to spare. If I want to spend my holidays in Italy, however, it's really nice to know I don't spend all my holidays trekking over the Alps on a mule first in one direction, then on the other, without having enough time to see anything.
What holidays (just for reference) I understand where you are coming from, but the truth is, if you wanted to experience the alps, you'd get there however you could.

Quote:
Not to mention, a horse requires more than 'a couple bushels a day'. Let's talk stabling and maintenance, for instance. For a horse, you need a stable, which is cleaned out regularly, preferably something of the order of magnitude of once a day. You need to know how to ride a horse, how to take care of a horse, and how to interpret the horse's needs and wishes. This is all not cheap, this is all time- and labor-intensive.
So is a job at a customer-service call line. I don't think we are considering our uses of time the same.

Quote:
Better infrastructure is not in the "sovereign government"'s hands. It's in the hands of companies. Unless you mean all those recent riots in communist states where all large infrastructure is in government hands.
It may be in the hands of the companies now, in some ways. But I thought taxes went to that as well.



Quote:
I would like to see evidence that electric cars would have a longer lifetime than combustion engine ones.
It will make all these years with leaded and unleaded make a lot less sense though when you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
I was drawing a connection, never once did I say "These people need a better vehicle, clearly, otherwise they just might continue pillaging the countyside."
No, but you did make two other claims. One of them was, that a non-combustion car does not need to have a long range because changing our lifestyles would make it possible for us to use non-combustion cars with only short range.
Prior to that, you said people took to rioting (looting shops and burning homes) because the government made mistakes, among other things not producing non-combustion cars. These people have lifestyles that could not function with short-range non-combustion cars.

Therefore, your claim is that people are rioting because they don't have access to cars their lifestyle does not even allow them to use.

I say that if it's important enough to destroy others' livelihoods over it, they'd first change their lifestyles, then demand cars they can actually use, not first get the cars and then gradually become able to use them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
What holidays (just for reference) I understand where you are coming from, but the truth is, if you wanted to experience the alps, you'd get there however you could.
That's not true.
Before cars were commonly available, only the very rich few could afford to go on holiday. This is not because the not-so-rich didn't want to see the alps, it's because having a week-long holiday in Venice is not worth spending a few weeks of your life hiking there and back again.

Yes, if seeing the alps was my life's dream, I would do that. I, however, like being able to visit Venice or Prague because I decide that I want to do that this year without having to devote my life to making such a trip possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
So is a job at a customer-service call line. I don't think we are considering our uses of time the same.
I don't see how that is in any way related to the conversation at hand. Your implication with "a couple a bushels a day is purty cheap" was that a horse is a cheap substitute for a car. It is not, it requires more maintenance, space, and know-how than the average car owner can spare for their transport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
It may be in the hands of the companies now, in some ways. But I thought taxes went to that as well.
Roads? Yes, but roads don't need to be improved or changed.
Tank stations? Not unless your president's name is Chavez, they're not, and that's the main problem with infrastructure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
It will make all these years with leaded and unleaded make a lot less sense though when you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The site rules
Worldly talk is a forum for discussing serious issues to this end if you are making assertions of fact you will be expected to provide links to credible evidence. The burden for providing said proof lies with the poster making the claim. The source should be credible e - personal blogs, like emoboy994's MySpace page, shouldn't be used unless they have some referencing. Try, for example, a news site, politician's blog, government site, or other "reputable" website. If you make a statement without providing any evidence and are requested to do so it is not acceptable to respond with any form of "go search for it yourself."

Do not use physical books or other offline sources as proof - it makes it very difficult for others to check the source, if the source is a book that they don't have. If the source is unavailable online it is reasonable to expect that your claims will be treated as dubious.
Please be so kind to provide proof when asked to.



You are making jumps that I never intended using purposefully confusing language, and not only that, but using them in a combative way to accomplish what exactly?



Quote:
Not every riot is going to be fired off by the same thing. However, the atmosphere of tension that fuels a riot is going to be pretty standard. People don't like to be dinked around, and it seems that people are getting dinked on a pretty casual basis. People aren't going to jump up from their couches and join in a brawl unless they already have something smouldering inside.

What did the sovereign government extract from the working class to cause this riot? That is a loaded question. I wasn't saying that
The government overtaxing/underwhelming
A+
Working Class
B=Riot. I was saying that we are living a time where the youth are not going to lie down anymore. Even if specific cases are vastly different it is still rooted in the same generational emotion.

The people involved in the genesis of the london riots weren't exactly some kind of spiritual revolutionaries destined for glory. The incident with the actual gun-down of the citizen was regrettable and the reaction even more regrettable in terms of natures law, but from the eyes of a foreigner in a foreign land it is definitely something that will cause people to stand and take notice.

What could the government use as an incentive to avoid future riots? Abolish fiat currency and give power back to the common man. That would be a good start. How about making progress in alternative energy rather than beating the dead horse of combustion engines? Its a dead technology. They are dressing it up different every year, but at the end of the day its still dead.

Not that my frustrations with government have any bearing on this exact topic. In all honesty I can't say I KNOW what has pushed the people so far in the UK, but something must have.
Nowhere in here am I stating that riots would cease or be started by a lack of the above. I was merely providing an example of what could be an incentive.

To which all you added was

Quote:
No, but you did make two other claims. One of them was, that a non-combustion car does not need to have a long range because changing our lifestyles would make it possible for us to use non-combustion cars with only short range.
Until the technology is advance enough to last longer trips, there is no reason why our PERSONAL vehicles could be electric and farther travel limited to more economical long distance means. I don't need to link the greyhound website right?

Quote:
Prior to that, you said people took to rioting (looting shops and burning homes) because the government made mistakes, among other things not producing non-combustion cars. These people have lifestyles that could not function with short-range non-combustion cars.
I actually never said that. As I have explained...

Quote:
Therefore, your claim is that people are rioting because they don't have access to cars their lifestyle does not even allow them to use.
Useless circular logic, not at all the point I am making.

Quote:
I say that if it's important enough to destroy others' livelihoods over it, they'd first change their lifestyles, then demand cars they can actually use, not first get the cars and then gradually become able to use them.


What do you mean here?

Quote:
I don't see how that is in any way related to the conversation at hand. Your implication with "a couple a bushels a day is purty cheap" was that a horse is a cheap substitute for a car. It is not, it requires more maintenance, space, and know-how than the average car owner can spare for their transport.
Who's the average car owner?
Quote:
Quote:
Roads? Yes, but roads don't need to be improved or changed.
Tank stations? Not unless your president's name is Chavez, they're not, and that's the main problem with infrastructure.
hehehe. Have you seen my roads? Have you seen your own roads?


Thank you for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
Nowhere in here am I stating that riots would cease or be started by a lack of the above. I was merely providing an example of what could be an incentive.
I was under the impression that the presence of incentives to not riot would cause riots to not start.

But if that's not what you meant, it seems we've simply hit a miscommunication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
I never alluded to anything you are saying here. Progress has already been made, the only thing that can ADVANCE a breakthrough IS ADVANCING THE RESEARCH.
Advancing research happens through breakthroughs.

Although I suppose I can't argue that you don't need breakthroughs in order to have breakthroughs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
You are right in the sense that "We" are the human race, and "We" can't do anything for "Ourselves" But to say we don't have better technology is ignorant.
1. Please keep personal attacks to a minimum. Thank you.
2. So, why did it take me two pages to get you to post any evidence?




Batteries currently last 5-7 years, and the technology in it's infancy.
Significantly reduced Maintenance[/SPOILER]

Thank you.

Until the technology is advance enough to last longer trips, there is no reason why our PERSONAL vehicles could be electric and farther travel limited to more economical long distance means. I don't need to link the greyhound website right?



Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
Useless circular logic, not at all the point I am making.
No, it does not.
1. The government does not provide non-combustion cars.
2. People care enough about it that having such cars would mean less riots.
3. People's individual lifestyles don't allow them to have such vehicles, because they use their cars to travel 500 miles.

I don't see the circle. Would you kindly point it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
What do you mean here?
Exactly I said.
Access to such cars would give people incentive to not riot. Therefore, they care enough about the cars that not having it is in part responsible for the riots. However, their current lifestyle (which includes traveling 500 miles) does not allow them to use such a car if they had access to it.
I think it odd people would burn others' livelihood over something they couldn't use if they had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
Who's the average car owner?
In this instance, anyone with a car who does not have any experience taking care of barnyard animals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
hehehe. Have you seen my roads? Have you seen your own roads?
Yup. I can drive on them. Electric cars have the same wheels and suspension, so they will be able to drive on them, as well.



Thank you for that.[/QUOTE]


I don't see your point.

You win. There is no hope in the world for electric cars, and its so important that we know it that we don't need to discuss the topic of the thread anymore. I am blatantly and belligerently attacking you with words i guess.

BACK to the london riots, the news I got from it is rather vague. Is there still anything going on, or is it all over with?

p.s. As a new user, I am beginning to wonder whether "Worldly Talk" is really the place for me. I am not nearly caustic enough to deal with all of this potent logic. Therefore, I must not be qualified to talk about the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultumLapidem View Post
p.s. As a new user, I am beginning to wonder whether "Worldly Talk" is really the place for me. I am not nearly caustic enough to deal with all of this potent logic. Therefore, I must not be qualified to talk about the world.
Nah, you are fine. Try to make it less personal, there's no point in feud with some particular user. Make a post if you have a point to make: reading flame wars is no fun. But reading posts where valid point is made is interesting (especially if it's backed with data). Hence the rules: mods try to keep this interesting to read, maybe at the cost of some flame fun.





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