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'Logistics & planning' skill?

   
'Logistics & planning' skill?

"Using a combination of observation, divination, referencing documents, and speaking to people in-the-know, you can construct an accurate assessment of a location or route's attributes, predicting dangers and unknowns, choosing the most efficient path, and calculating the necessary supplies for any operation, be it as mundane as directing a caravan expedition or as heroic as infiltrating an infernal fortress."

I have a character in the works right now who, as part of his concept, has training in logistical theory; how to move things efficiently, plot the safest and quickest route, and (in a typical high-fantasy world) account for potential dangers.
Given that he's going to be a member of a thieves guild, at some point this skill is probably going to be used for masterminding a palace robbery or something similar.

With that in mind, and given the flavor text I just made up above, which skill in Pathfinder (including Knowledge and Profession skills) would be most appropriate to such 'scan-it-and-plan-it' behavior?

More thoughts on what would be done with this skill:
Plan the path of a merchant convoy to minimize the chance of encountering bandits or slow traffic (that sounds like Profession, kinda).
Map a swamp and plot the safest route for a party of adventurers to go through (but that sounds like Survival...).
Gauge the approximate number of guards and defenses in a fortress by their supply intake (uh, maybe Appraise?).
Determine the stealthiest route over rooftops to a castle treasury (you'd use Stealth in the execution, but for the planning...).

...And et-cetera. Any ideas for the perfectly fitting skill?

Knowledge History sounds the nearest to me. If you want one Skill that could give insight for all of those. Perhaps with a Wisdom bonus (or penalty) added in. However... I would think a good Roll, or maybe very high total from Taking 10 (20 not allowed) might give a few "your Character remembers something s/he read once about..." tips or point out an issue with a plan that PC or other(s) came up with or are developing. But... to just Roll (or Take 10) and get a high total and then... seems like you would be expecting the GM to plan out things. Rather than PC(s) if reasonable for them to with possibly some tips or things to watch out for or consider from GM if a good Knowledge History (or Nature, or Profession: Soldier or Caravan Merchant, etc)

I think the point of having it spread across multiple skills to to make sure you can't just max one skill and be good at everything, cause that sounds like what you want to do. That been said, go skill monkey, choose a class that has a lot of skills base, get high intelligence so you can get more skill points, human for another. Drop a few feats into skill focuses. You'd be bad at actual combat, but very good at any skill checks.
That been said, most spell casters can get cast something that gets them around that problem in the first place, but that is for a casters vs non-caster debate. Divination would require a caster, or at least an allied one.
It also sounds like the skill is something of a, roll and ask the GM based on the roll how to beat this challenge. Not a good thing, it's also why it's spread across multiple skills.
Based on your description, I can narrow down 3 skills that what you said covers plus you've already listed some uses and possible skills for it as well.
  • Observation is basically the skill Perception.
  • Divination requires a spell caster
  • Referencing Documents is a gather information, probably with modifiers for time spent doing it. Plus whatever skill you rolled to get them in the first place and how accurate they are.
  • Speaking to people in the know is basically a combination of gother information to find such people, plus whatever skill you use to get them to talk (diplomacy or intimidate) and a sense motive roll to know if they are telling the truth vs them with a potential bluff check to lie.
In the end, I'd say there is no perfect skill, but that is the point. What your trying to do is already covered by a lot of different skills, and to be good at all the them would require a massive investment of resources, and you want it as one skill. From the sounds of it, though I could be wrong, is you want one skill you can max, skill focus, etc, and be able to devote the rest of your feats, etc into stuff for combat, or whatever else it is you are good at. It's also not a skill cause some of it is what is discussed when you talk about your plans when you are making them.

Neither of those are really the answer I need... I've already got a class all picked out, and rather than being about stuff my character already knows, it's...well, what skill would you use for looking at a parcel of information, of any kind, and deriving sound conclusions? Not prior knowledge or any physical capacity, just the knowhow to apply formally trained logic given facts about a situation?

Hmm, I wouldn't say it's something that can be qualified as a skill, it might be part of the skills that obtained the information. You might be better going for a straight intelligence check for that, not a skill.
If you really want it as a skill, you might be able to sort out a profession, tactician, or something like that. But even then, I wouldn't call that a skill outright. Some of the arch-types for some classes fit the idea, but that obviously doesn't solve your problem. You could steal an idea from one and use the name of one of there class features to name the profession.
There's not much I can say in favor of a straight int check, but I'd argue that it most accurately represents what you are trying to do. What you are trying to to is intelligently, look at a large amount of information, and draw logical conclusions from it after weighing all the facts. I can't say much since as an attribute, it covers such a broad field it's hard to define, and often changes from person to person. I've seen enough debates on here to know trying to specify what a basic attribute is, isn't possible. But by my own definition of it, I'd say it's probably closer than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaday Daydream View Post
Neither of those are really the answer I need... I've already got a class all picked out, and rather than being about stuff my character already knows, it's...well, what skill would you use for looking at a parcel of information, of any kind, and deriving sound conclusions? Not prior knowledge or any physical capacity, just the knowhow to apply formally trained logic given facts about a situation?
Intelligence and/or Wisdom check (possibly combined) is more what you are describing. Rather than a 'Skill'. Though you can still take historical lessons learned from the mistakes or well done moments from other people (not just military folks) and apply to a new, but in some key way(s) similar, situation. (See Mat the General - The Wheel of Time.) (I have also heard, have not myself confirmed, that still to this day at West Point Military Academy - they study the military exploits of the Biblical David to glean insights for tactics, strategy, (and logistics to some degree) for modern day engagements.)

And again - to get some perhaps hints or tidbits from GM (some perhaps not so effective, depending on the Roll). Not to then have the GM write out a 10 step plan for how to get into the castle because you rolled well. (Or an 8 step plan (perhaps with a few key steps left out) if you don't roll so well.)


Hmm...I might go with Diplomacy and its Gather Information subset after all.

When it comes to situations like personally observing a fort for the purpose of finding its weak point, combinations of Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth, which my character has a handful of each.
When it comes to pre-planning for longer trips and such, Gather Information using the Diplomacy skill will be enough to find useful information for the trip, and a simple intelligence check (with a 'he did his major in logistics' circumstance bonus, maybe) to make sense of the information if it's over-complicated.

Gather Information within Diplomacy only (theoretically) works if there is someone(s) around who have insight into it. That may not always be the case. If what you outline works for you or your GM, ok. I would think observing a fort for its weak point is fairly clearly Knowledge: Engineering. While actually physically getting into it secretly is Acrobatics (possibly), Perception, and Stealth. Pre-Planning a longer trip... again Gather Information via Diplomacy only works if someone has such insight. Which might be from their experience, skill (Knowledge Local and/or Survival), or Profession (Caravan Merchant and/or Merchant). Or Knowledge: History - past caravans, explorations, etc - like that setting's equivalent to Hannibal's venture over the mountains, a Lewis and Clark type expedition, etc. Or an Intelligence check, possibly with Wisdom or bonus from prior experience. But again - whatever works for you and/or the GM.

You can replace Diplomacy checks with Intimidate rolls if you want, but if they fail they will fail a lot worse than a failed Diplomacy roll. But sometimes, Diplomacy might never get what you want, and Intimidate is the only way to go.
Again, I'd go with Intelligence check, if you want a modifier, ask to make a feat that is the equivalent to skill focus to checks like that.
I should point out that I don't really have anything more to add at this point that I haven't already said, or seen worded better by someone else, so I'll probably duck out of the rest of this topic since I've got nothing left to add.




 

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