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Divine Challenge

   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironchef33 View Post
so it seems now that the fighter is still the stickiest to one target and that a paladin might have been designed to juggle his marks to get the maximum benefit from it?
That's an excellent point because it doesn't seem to fit the flavor of the Paladin, though rules-wise it is perfectly effective for him to challenge and engage a different target every round.

Personally I always felt that the Paladin was better at pulling of a single enemy, such as the big bad, than the Fighter, where the fighter is better at being placed in a position (so down the hall) and being a road block that people just can't get passed (AoO stop movement, etc).

It really doesn't fit the flavor to jump from one target to another. :/ so he'd be more effective as a minion tank, but even that doesn't make sense. Because to keep the challenge, the paladin has to attack or end adjacent to the target. So that means I have to mark (in this case) the minion, either stand next to it and attack something else, if there is something else, or attack it, which ruins the whole point of marking it in the first place?

Quote:
While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack
rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target.
Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma
modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include
you as a target before the start of your next turn. The
damage increases to 6 + your Charisma modifier at 11th
level, and to 9 + your Charisma modifier at 21st level.
This bit is badly written, but if you consider the "Also, it takes radiant damage" to be referring to "it takes a -2 penalty to attack", it basically "refreshes" at the start of your turns.

Hmmm, I'm playing a paladin in my local game, and through six levels the DM and I have yet to disagree how to use Divine Challenge. Here's what I do:

On my turn, as a minor action, I mark a foe within 5 squares (let's call it "Fred"). As long as I either attack Fred (and I have thrown a dagger at many Freds to keep the Divine Challenge intact - get a magic dagger, because magical thrown weapons automatically return!) or end up standing next to Fred at the end of my turn, my Divine Challenge is waiting and ready to affect Fred's actions until my turn begins next round.

If Fred makes an attack that doesn't include me, then Fred takes a -2 penalty and 8 points of damage (I'm a Cha-based Paladin). We both agree that a creature that attacks two enemies as part of the same attack (like some larger monsters can attack two adjacent enemies, or a close blast/burst attack) means that my Paladin is included in the attack and doesn't trigger the DC conditions. Opportunity Attacks count as attacks for this, so when the Wizard tries to slink away and Fred takes a swing, the penalty and damage kick in.

Once Fred takes the effects of the Divine Challenge, then he doesn't get a second dose of penalty/damage if he makes another attack that doesn't include me. At that point, he can swing all he wants at anyone he wants.

When my turn comes up again, I mark a foe as a minor action. If I mark Fred again, then we repeat the above. Or I may elect to mark a different enemy within 5 squares, in which case Fred is free from the wrath of my deity. If I mark someone and then don't "engage" them by either attacking or ending my turn adjacent to them, then my Divine Challenge fizzles and I am unable to apply it anew next round. Alternatively, instead of marking someone, if I don't think I will meet either condition of the mark, then I can elect to not Challenge anyone this round and then I can use it next round. I think of it like the Paladin has to call the deity's attention to smite Fred when I Challenge him; if I ask for Melora's help, and then I don't make the effort to meet my end of the deal (attack or stand next to him), then Melora gets mad at me and punishes me for a round. Cheesy fluff to justify an awkward mechanic, I know...

Luckily, we're a small party and being the only defender, and no one else has any marking abilities (well, there's a Warlock who curses, but that's not the same). That makes my situation simpler to examine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abelard View Post
Hmmm, I'm playing a paladin in my local game, and through six levels the DM and I have yet to disagree how to use Divine Challenge. Here's what I do:

On my turn, as a minor action, I mark a foe within 5 squares (let's call it "Fred"). As long as I either attack Fred (and I have thrown a dagger at many Freds to keep the Divine Challenge intact - get a magic dagger, because magical thrown weapons automatically return!) or end up standing next to Fred at the end of my turn, my Divine Challenge is waiting and ready to affect Fred's actions until my turn begins next round.

If Fred makes an attack that doesn't include me, then Fred takes a -2 penalty and 8 points of damage (I'm a Cha-based Paladin). We both agree that a creature that attacks two enemies as part of the same attack (like some larger monsters can attack two adjacent enemies, or a close blast/burst attack) means that my Paladin is included in the attack and doesn't trigger the DC conditions. Opportunity Attacks count as attacks for this, so when the Wizard tries to slink away and Fred takes a swing, the penalty and damage kick in.

Once Fred takes the effects of the Divine Challenge, then he doesn't get a second dose of penalty/damage if he makes another attack that doesn't include me. At that point, he can swing all he wants at anyone he wants.

When my turn comes up again, I mark a foe as a minor action. If I mark Fred again, then we repeat the above. Or I may elect to mark a different enemy within 5 squares, in which case Fred is free from the wrath of my deity. If I mark someone and then don't "engage" them by either attacking or ending my turn adjacent to them, then my Divine Challenge fizzles and I am unable to apply it anew next round. Alternatively, instead of marking someone, if I don't think I will meet either condition of the mark, then I can elect to not Challenge anyone this round and then I can use it next round. I think of it like the Paladin has to call the deity's attention to smite Fred when I Challenge him; if I ask for Melora's help, and then I don't make the effort to meet my end of the deal (attack or stand next to him), then Melora gets mad at me and punishes me for a round. Cheesy fluff to justify an awkward mechanic, I know...

Luckily, we're a small party and being the only defender, and no one else has any marking abilities (well, there's a Warlock who curses, but that's not the same). That makes my situation simpler to examine.
That seems like it would work alright in practice, but obviously violates the RAW of the first paragraph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abelard View Post
Once Fred takes the effects of the Divine Challenge, then he doesn't get a second dose of penalty/damage if he makes another attack that doesn't include me. At that point, he can swing all he wants at anyone he wants.
I would agree with this as a house-ruled way of dealing with it, except the second part of this doesn't agree with the rules of the Marked condition, which is a fairly clearly defined game keyword:
MARKED
✦ You take a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t target the creature that marked you.
PHB, page 277. PCs can get extra things on top of their marks, but a mark is still a Mark.

Aside from the above note I would happily let a player in my game treat it this way, or use it this way myself in agreement with my DM, because it does look like a pretty balanced homebrew mechanic, but as Sithobi1 says it's not RAW.

Though I would caution that regardless, the marked foe SHOULD still take a -2 penalty to attacks, regardless of how many attacks they make.




 

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