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Evil Campaigns

   
Evil Campaigns

Ok, I am running an evil campaign and I recently was reading something by a third party publisher about the pitfalls of running an evil campaign. They laid them out as such:
  1. No Rest for the Wicked.
  2. The Trouble with Minions
  3. Us against the World
  4. PG-13 Villany
  5. On a Mission from God

To sum up what they mention as the pitfalls is that Villains are always needing to do something (cannot be a passive villain), dealing with over-reliance on minions, character vs. character conflict (and why they think CE should not be allowed in villain campaigns), portraying some evil acts (and how sometimes, being vague is good - think the vader/lea torture scene), and motivating them beyond the senseless pursuit of evil.

I was just wondering if anyone had run a successful evil campaign and had any thoughts on it.

To address the above points:

1. While "heroes" tend to be passive by nature, a "villain" is not restricted to waiting for something to happen. That doesn't mean that they can't be reactive, however; it means that they have the option to do some unexpected things. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but as a DM you might find that some of your traditional plot hooks don't work as well with Evil PCs.

2. An evil character doesn't necessarily need minions, though they can be an asset if used well. As a DM, minions aren't so much of a bother; instead of running NPCs against the NPC villain's minions (off-screen), you simply run NPCs against the PC villain's minions. The player need not (and should not) personally control all of his/her minions. It's worth noting that the evil PCs take some of the work off of your hands by playing the role of the antagonists.

3. This issue is something evil PCs have to worry about, and isn't so much of an issue for the DM. If your world is predominately Good and Neutral, your players should go into the campaign knowing that they will be outnumbered. As long as you make this known to them, it's not a problem.

4. Just remind the players to keep things toned down. If it's something that could've been used as an example in the BoVD, it's probably not PG-13 and therefore not appropriate for this site. Detailed descriptions of torture and viscera, for instance, are a no-no.

5. Evil gods have agents too, y'know.


More to come later if needed, gotta get back to work.

I've ran several "Evil" campaigns and i must say that they do have their own little challenges. Mine however were in person and we were all adults so no need to monitor the PG-13 things, although we usually weren't too Vile. the problem i found was that motivating evil PC's is very difficult. My reasoning for saying that is this. Tell a group of good PC's that there is a nice little old lady who needs help carrying her bags and they'll help out. Tell them some maiden yells help from down some darkened alley and they leap to the rescue. Announce any kind of injustice and Good PC's leap at the opportunity to take action against it. On the other hand a group of Evil PC's don't care if they see someone helping a little old lady across the street. That good deed isn't going to spur them into action against the dogooder. They also don't care if some maiden yells help from an alley or any of the other typical cliches that motivate good PC's. The best way i have found to motivate an Evil PC is to threaten them or their possessions. However this often leads them on a no holds barred vendetta against those responsible.
In most cases my Evil PC's were such so that they could do whatever they wanted without alignment hindrance. They wanted to avoid the hassles of doing the "right thing" in every situation. This didn't mean that they were always doing evil deeds because they often did end up doing things that benefited the world as a whole. That was my little twist on things. If an even greater evil power threatens the independence of the evil party they will often take it out in an effort to ensure their continued dominance.
Ultimately it comes down to your group of players. You need a group who will work together and who will operate their characters under an unspoken agreement not to cause inner party strife. The agreement is made between the players not through their characters. It is after all about fun for everyone and its no fun having your character screwed over by someone elses.

I've run around 4 short evil campaigns; 3 one shot evil and a decently long evil campaign involving the rise of a new demon lord in the abyss (that was really fun). And before I offer my advice I will first tell you the books you must must must read before doing an evil campaign; book of exalted deeds (good to counter act the evil and such), book of vile darkness (you just can't have an evil campaign without this thing), exemplars of evil (the guide book to villainy), and then depending on your general theme and setting I can share the name of other books.

1. First off villains don't "need to do something" while its true you can't have a "passive" villain you never truly have "passive" PC's either, think about it hard enough and you realize the death of a campaign is usually when the PC's wait for adventure to come to them instead of going out and seeking it themselves. It's hard to explain but just because their evil doesn't mean you have to treat your PC's differently in fact it gives you a chance to throw some of the awesome good aligned creatures at your PC that they usually ally with as a good party and gives them a chance to make deals with evil creatures that normal good PC's can't cooperate with. Betrayal by trusted friends, things not going as planned, being hunted by somebody/some organization for your actions things that happen to normal PC's happen to villains all the time.

In the end being evil requires more cleverness and observation of what's happening and has happened than one would think everybody thinks an evil campaign is I kill who I want when I want and how i want to when it is actually an interesting chance to use your skills, spells, and role playing to manipulate those around to doing what you want for you. Good quote I got from futurama and used for a villain in my campaign who had manipulated the city into believing the PC's were villains who planned to destroy and loot their city, "If you do things right people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

2. Minions, allies, underlings, whatever you wanna call them are always a tricky business for us as DM especially when we allow our PC to essentially have control over NPC's. You as a DM need to be able to figure out what it is and isn't the PC should be allowed to do with people that are his followers, I mean think from the position of a minion, would you jump into the spike pit so that your master could cross safely over your remains (only if your his thrall lol). Typically if you follow the rules of the leadership feat, keep in line as to what even an NPC has limits on what they'll do, you should be fine. Hell use their minions as plot points while you're at it, not all minions are faithful and not all people who join under you are there to help; spies are frequent in the world of DnD as are assassins.

Also keep in mind a minion should never do anything as good as a PC (except as a corpse to hide behind-even bards have their uses lol), minions make mistakes especially if you rely on them too much and if you're PC's do that make their mistakes obvious one ex. forgot to set up the acid pit trap for the lawmen pursuing you for crimes etc.

You can just outright now allow minions if you want (remember you're the DM) in the long running evil campaign they were the minions of the rising demon lord and as such he forbid them from contracting those to work under him without unless he sent them on a mission where he assigned them underlings (quite a few of those). Worked out well since the PC's only had minions when they really needed them or when I could plan for the minions in part of the plot and combat.

3. If this hasn't been a problem in a good campaign I am actually surprised. There is always and i mean always character conflict because nobody (in or out of character) carries the exact same belief and ideas and even then can ever truly agree that one thing is how it should be or that one way was the right way. Character conflict is a beautiful double edged sword that allows for character development and interesting plot changes. As for "us against the world" as Dalar said if you come into a campaign evil/chaotic aligned in a mostly good/lawful world you get fair warning and undoubtedly expect a few scrapes and bruises along your journey.

3. PG-13, I guess this is different for me than most people since when I purchased the BoVD it became my go to book of what to throw at hot shot players who thought they were untouchable. The tone and degree of description and violence that you should allow should be based purely on who mature and capable your group is of mentally handling these things. For instance in one of the one shots the PC half-giant half-orc had a profound hate for elves and upon discovering a small elf camp slaughtered, skinned, and turned them into his new clothes for the week (the details were left vague for this instance because there were women present who probably couldn't have handled the chilling detail I can go into as per example 2). Example 2 involves a Halloween special where an NPC elf (irony) former slave who had developed a grudge gone sadistic murderer intent towards his captors, humans, that led him to capture and torture them for days as they begged for him to kill them which he made the PC's full aware of during their pursuit and capture of him (my PC's made sure after this incident that I ran the horror themed one shot for next Halloween because as one of them put it the next day, "If this campaign involved insanity points I probably would have hit max halfway through and that's not my character that's me and that was before we entered the guys hideout."

I find that it's best to adapt the degree of horrifying detailed based on what is necessary for the campaign obviously if this is more of an evil horror themed campaign details shouldn't be spared since the point of the details is to add depth to the tale. If we're talking about what I did for the evil campaign details were conservative, things weren't overly gory, and all in all I treated descriptions with as much care as do during any other themed campaign; as much as need and a hint of flavor when the time calls for it.

4. Though we'd all like to be a PC like Richard in LFG I find it's best in any campaign that the players have some drive, rather it be the demon lord who has promised you high positions in his new kingdom for you loyalty or some other thing I can say that without a drive a campaign will die. Beyond the point of evil for evils sake looks in exemplar of evil that book is just gold.

If you need anymore specific advice just message me and I'll get back to you in a week or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphiel1 View Post
3. PG-13, I guess this is different for me than most people since when I purchased the BoVD it became my go to book of what to throw at hot shot players who thought they were untouchable. The tone and degree of description and violence that you should allow should be based purely on who mature and capable your group is of mentally handling these things. For instance in one of the one shots the PC half-giant half-orc had a profound hate for elves and upon discovering a small elf camp slaughtered, skinned, and turned them into his new clothes for the week (the details were left vague for this instance because there were women present who probably couldn't have handled the chilling detail I can go into as per example 2). Example 2 involves a Halloween special where an NPC elf (irony) former slave who had developed a grudge gone sadistic murderer intent towards his captors, humans, that led him to capture and torture them for days as they begged for him to kill them which he made the PC's full aware of during their pursuit and capture of him (my PC's made sure after this incident that I ran the horror themed one shot for next Halloween because as one of them put it the next day, "If this campaign involved insanity points I probably would have hit max halfway through and that's not my character that's me and that was before we entered the guys hideout."

I find that it's best to adapt the degree of horrifying detailed based on what is necessary for the campaign obviously if this is more of an evil horror themed campaign details shouldn't be spared since the point of the details is to add depth to the tale. If we're talking about what I did for the evil campaign details were conservative, things weren't overly gory, and all in all I treated descriptions with as much care as do during any other themed campaign; as much as need and a hint of flavor when the time calls for it.
This site has a PG-13 requirement, because they use Google Ads for revenue, and Google Ads requires PG-13 or less.

You can get around that (so to speak) by setting the scene up, then leaving out the details. Good horror gives you just enough to imagine it yourself without cramming it into your brain in a specific way. If you need a torture scene, for example, describe the room, the tools, the torturer, and the victim. From there, skip to the end with the victim bloody and cut up and bruised (or whatever without getting too grossly detailed). If the player will be describing these things, just remind them to not get into the details of the action, but rather stick to the details of the setting. Suggest, don't show. This is the same tactical approach as should be taken with sex, forced or not. You suggest, don't show, then skip to the end result.

Browse your favorite movies and check the ratings. The Avengers is PG-13, so is Avatar, all the Harry Potter movies, Lord of the Rings, and so on. It's a popular rating, because it means you can have explosions, violence, menace, some scantily clad women, and a handful of swearwords, and still get the teenagers.

Was The Dark Knight also PG-13? I ask because it was rated 12A by the BBFC which is the UK equivalent of a PG-13 and it sets the bar for PG-13 villainy pretty high.

Also 12A was Casino Royale, which included a fairly graphic torture scene. In fact most of the spy thriller genre appears to be 12A (PG-13).

Of course I think film classification is fairly insane, particularly the hyper-sensitivity regarding profanity, but I guess that's another topic.

imdb.com is your friend.

Yes to both. So, yeah, you can get away with some fairly violent stuff. I still recommend against using detailed descriptions, to avoid courting danger yourself. Really, when it comes to torture, it doesn't actually matter what methods get used in a game. Whether the victim breaks or not will generally be determined by either a die roll or plot necessity. If you really must know what exactly was done to the victim, it can be discussed by PM (or IM, or whatever).

This thread makes me want to try running an evil campaign along the theme of Disgaea: Hour of Darkness, where all demons in hell are vying for the throne after the demon king dies.

*No Rest for the Wicked.

Deploy Heroes. Smash down everything the villains do. If you can induce your players to monologue and curse the names of the PCs (that you make as obnoxiously Good as possible) you get bonus points. i.e. like a Good campaign, make your players CARE about what is happening. CHALLENGE them.

*The Trouble with Minions

Minions are awesome. Make them as terrible as possible. 'Boss, heroes showed up and took the focusing crystal!' 'Boss, heroes showed up and stole your zeppelin!' 'Boss, we set the interdimensionalitator wrong and your phylactery is gone! What should we do, boss?'. Minions should just show up if possible. You're a powerful wizard? Goblins serve you. You're a masterful ninja? Goblins serve you. You're jim the shit-covered anarchist elf fighter 1? Goblins serve you.

*Us against the World

This is a social problem. Awesome and well-thought out backstabbering is GOOD for your evil campaign. 'That time Jim tricked Bob into getting killed by that king's bodyguards when he got caught with all those virgins hah oh god so funny'. But constant attempts at backstabbing in dumb and not-benefiting-the-character ways especially if the character dies from failed backstabbing and the player makes another and keeps trying, is just immature and dumb. Evil campaign doesn't mean 'don't take it seriously and ruin it for everyone else', and as long as you remind people of this, it should be fine.

*PG-13 Villainy

PG-13? Fade to black. Imply. This isn't a problem solely for evil campaigns. It's another order of difficulty onto describing things even in Good games.

*On a Mission from God

This is probably the only hard issue. Evil characters are, in many ways, more complex in motivation than Good characters. They have to have REASONS as to why they're evil. Enemies they want to defeat. Goals. Even just 'become powerful and rich', can be a long term and story-creating goal. But all Good characters have 'thwart evil' as an automatic goal, and Evil characters don't, necessarily, have 'thwart good'. Just make sure everyone has 'why you're evil' and 'what you want' on their sheet in some form, and then bam, you're evil to go.

I'd like to raise a glass of eerily blood-like red wine to Rejakor's post, and also add to it that it's not only good if your villains have a 'why you're evil' on their sheet, but that these are not in active opposition. That's more of a problem with evil characters, because, in the end, 'good' tends to boil down to helping people and people can overlook disagreements for the greater good, because good is, in itself, a cause. Pretty much no good villain will overlook disagreements for 'the greater evil'.




 

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