When did non-compliance become disrespect? - Page 2 - OG Myth-Weavers

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When did non-compliance become disrespect?

 
Personally I could care less if people consider me disrespectful. I certainly am, and habitually blasphemous on top of that. How dare they interrupt what I'm doing on the mistaken assumption that their belief takes precedence? I consider it disrespectful when people importune me to make a public spectacle of their faith, especially at a non-religious civic event. It's even worse when the perpetrators are Christian, in my opinion, because they are demonstrating how ignorant they are of their own religion. I believe Jesus had harsh words about public demonstrations of faith, and advised solitary prayer.

I think the answer to the thread's question is that non-compliance became disrespect when you considered that the group in question took your non-compliance for disrespect.

There's really no need to pretend there is some greater pattern here, or that the 'non-compliance = disrespect' thing extends anywhere outside of this instance, so this is more of an anecdote turned into a conversation piece turned into a complaint on the zealous.

Any individual instance of evidence regarding a pattern in human behaviour could be reasonably described in isolation as an anecdote.
Your suggestion, Merdle, is little more than the insinuation that the OP is among a distinct minority of the relevent population (ie. primarily those not professing the predominant religion of their region EDIT: and who associate meaningfully with the followers of that predominant religion) in having experienced such an event; to that, then, I challenge you to present any meaningful evidence (note I do not ask proof, as that would understandably be unreasonable).

I would say stand your ground and do what you feel is right. When a group of people with the same beliefs get together, it is inevitable that mob mentality sets in. Don't let yourself be bullied by those who subscribe to groupthink. So long as you live in a free society, you have the right to exercise your beliefs and if people look down on you for that, then perhaps you should evaluate how much they mean to you. I have done so with my own family, who have learned quickly that I am more than content to live my life without them if they try and judge me for acting according to my conscience. Perhaps I have burned a few bridges. But I would rather loose a few shallow relationships, knowing that the handful of relations I have around me are deep and meaningful, without expecting me to compromise myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedronai View Post
Any individual instance of evidence regarding a pattern in human behaviour could be reasonably described in isolation as an anecdote.
Your suggestion, Merdle, is little more than the insinuation that the OP is among a distinct minority of the relevent population (ie. primarily those not professing the predominant religion of their region EDIT: and who associate meaningfully with the followers of that predominant religion) in having experienced such an event; to that, then, I challenge you to present any meaningful evidence (note I do not ask proof, as that would understandably be unreasonable).
I would, but I have no idea what you are even asking evidence for. What I'm saying is, people are approaching this like it is some sort of meaningful discussion when all it is going to be is a people going "I agree, don't pray if you don't want to" and "I disagree, you should at least pretend to pray" in equal doses. Nothing meaningful is going to be gained or lost by this in my opinion.

Honestly people, I'm not sure where you're going with the whole "don't be pushed around" point. Who's being pushed around or bullied? Any reasonable adult has learned that he or she can't fight every single battle at the slightest provocation. If you do not believe in what the others do, then how can you be offended by a gesture? So what if they pray to a god you don't? How does it hurt you to respect their tradition? If anything, I'd think you, the unbeliever, has the least to lose.

The point is very simple. If you know who you are and what you believe, then how does closing one's eyes change that? Is is truly worth offending one's friends and family over 'individual rights'? Really? We're not exactly talking about fighting against slavery, here. Politely acknowledging the beliefs of others does nothing to harm your own. Indeed, it is a selfless action that shows you place your friendship or famial relationship above a philosphical/religious discussion. In the end, isn't THAT what matters more? Relationships are about giving and taking. Can't this simply be an event where one 'gives'? You might be surprised at the respect you'll generate. (Hammie has won it from Muslims who never thought he'd honor their ways. This lead to future invitations, parties, events, and special meals in the Turkish community.)

I fear that responding in some of the means mentioned already can be downright insensitive to others. Is it really worth the hurt feelings? I'd think long and hard about that before I'd answer.

Life isn't all about you. You (nor anyone else) will never have a monopoly on wisdom. Like it or not, other people will be right about things that you are wrong on, and vice versa. Travel this wide world over, and you'll see that even MORE people disagree with you. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Yes, some other people will not understand this, and some will be obstinant enough to heckle you over it. All right; let them dwell in their own igorance. It's no skin off your nose. Just don't let the anger they caused you be the ruin of a relationship you have with someone else.

I have dined at Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Taoist, Jewish, and Atheist tables. I include atheist because to some people, it is a religion (the uber sensitive sort; think fanatics of any faith and you'll get the idea. It's not most). There is simply no way on earth that I'm going to agree with everything they have to say, and vice versa. So what? We don't care. We recognize the fact that we can still respect each other, be friends, show respect for each other, and learn tolerance for differing beliefs.

Closing one's eyes is not about YOU. It is instead about THEM. It is realizing that your love and respect outweigh a philosophical debate. To me, it's a tiny inconveniance that I gladly go through to preserve a friendship.

Now, can one sometimes dine with fanatics that do not respect the polite gesture I mentioned? Yes. I have (atheists included). It is quite possible, but it is the exception, not the rule. In such circumstances, one may find that the friendship is not worth keeping.

But overall, it's about looking beyond yourself. Trust me; life becomes much easier when you realize it's not all about you.

I usually agree with you, Hammerfist, but this time I can't. Amnistar did nothing in the wrong, sitting quietly while the others performed their ritual. It's not like he whipped out his cell phone and started playing video games or did anything else disruptive. It would help if we knew whether this event took place in someone's home or in a more public place, but either way I don't see any reason to condemn what he did.

Also, why should the requirement for selflessness be limited to the outsider? Are you advocating the tyranny of the majority? I have to say, I have a great deal of contempt for religion being used as a bludgeon, or for people trying to parlay a religious majority into a de facto state religion. We're not talking about tolerance here, we're talking about coerced participation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerfist
The point is very simple. If you know who you are and what you believe, then how does closing one's eyes change that? Is is truly worth offending one's friends and family over 'individual rights'? Really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerfist
Closing one's eyes is not about YOU. It is instead about THEM. It is realizing that your love and respect outweigh a philosophical debate. To me, it's a tiny inconveniance that I gladly go through to preserve a friendship.
I agree with Azh here, Hammie. Respecting another's beliefs is not mimicking what they do or doing something akin to them (ie. bowing your head), it is letting them do their rites without disruption. Not only that, but you talk much about respect and selflessness. Why this selflessness and respect must be shown only from the pagan's side? The religious people must show as much respect in that, by allowing the pagan to not follow their rites, as long as he doesn't disrupt them either.

I'm agnostic. At home, no one's religious. I work at a Christian school. There's the odd bit of praying there.

I agree that joining a prayer that you don't believe in is disrespectful. I don't go out of my way to draw the ire of any particular potential supernatural entity. I don't take steps to placate them, but nor do I deliberately anger them.

I find closing my eyes in any situation other than sleep extremely uncomfortable. Kind of like sitting with your back to a door. So, I don't. I
Not by much. Look at your screen. Now look to your keyboard by moving your head rather than your eyes. You've probably lowered your gaze more than I do
lower my gaze, I stay still and silent while they do their thing - that's more of an effort, with the Tourette's and all. When they say 'amen', I nod my head.

Daft as it sounds, by standing/sitting there in a 'neutral' position, you're not just not participating. You're excluding yourself. Picture a line of folks with arms behind their backs doing X. One bloke's got his arms crossed in front of him and isn't doing X. He's not just not going along with it, he's in a stance that excludes him from it, it's a rejection of the activity. It's late, I may not be explaining that well.

Amnistar's also not said what situation this was, what context. I went into my job knowing that my own beliefs would be the minority. If I was a guest in someone's home, I'd do the same. If someone comes to my house and demands I say grace or thank the Mother Goddess, well, bugger them. It depends on who it is. If my boss was over for dinner, I'd probably go along with it, even though it is my house.

Azhmodai, to be clear, I didn't approve of the fact that other people were impolite. Nor did I think their method of explaining it to Aminstar was appropriate. I was instead trying to explain the justification behind the act. I don't condemn what he did because I believe he didn't mean to be rude. Instead, I simply meant to explain what I've found to be best in my own personal experience.

My problem came with the 'don't you let 'em get ya' sort of responses it was generating. It's not a battle of 'us vs them', and it doesn't need to be viewed as such. I'm trying to show that 'it's not about you, it's about them' and that a simple understanding often makes it easier to mend fences with our world community.

And to be honest, Azhmodai, it's not religion that's always being used as the bludgeon. I could regale you with numerous stories of atheists openly mocking my own personal religious beliefs, especially at the dinner table. We are instead talking about intolerance versus tolerance. Anyone who decides to be so rude can do so. Religion has been the tool in many nations, especially those that MW is popular in. But I assure you that state forced atheism is/was quite a common discussion around Chinese, Cuban, former USSR, and East German tables for I can introduce you to the Jews, Christians, and Muslims that went through it. Therefore, it is NOT linked solely to religion, and thus, qualms with religious issues target the anecdote, not the problem. Your personal issues with this, while valid, are not really hitting the true issue.

Re: selflessness to the outsider. Because I made the assumption that the 'outsider' is the guest. It's common operating procedure for the guest to honor the host. One does not enforce the rules on another's turf. I would not journey to Israel, dine in an orthodox Jew's house, and demand to be served pork. It may be 'my right' to eat such a meal, and I may have many reasons for doing it that are not wrong, but it is in very poor taste to do so. In the end, I ruin a relationship with a friend to grab a meal I could have easily gone without.

Re: Tyranny of the majority. No, instead, I'm arguing that it is rude for the outsider to enforce tyranny of the minority upon others. We live in a world where a community of 10,000 people can be forced to take down a manger scene because 5 people complained about it, and where fear, anger, and insecurity take the place of manners, education, tolerance, and understanding.

We're also not talking about coerced participation, because closing one's eyes is by no means a form of participation. As I said before, you can think about the Giants/Eagles game for all I care, and many folks do. It's the expression, the motions, the idea that you care about those you are with enough to respect them that matters, here. Coerced participating would actually force the atheist to pray aloud; that's a horse of a different color. Participation is what goes on within your heart and mind; no one can force that upon you. I don't see how one is 'bowing to God' by closing one's eyes to be nice to his/her friends.

Essentially, I say this. What is gained by outright refusal? What is lost? To me, I see a moral victory of two seconds versus a broken relationship. There's no need for the former at the expense of the latter. Part of life is learning that others disagree with you and finding a way to love them all the same, working with those that you can, and fighting those only when their own stubborn qualities force no other option.

Let not your victories be Pyrrhic.




 

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