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Mounted Combat (In General, not the Feat)

   
Mounted Combat (In General, not the Feat)

So, my question is in regards to two specific Feats, the RAW rules being very clear, but perhaps somewhat . . . exploitable to my mind. Now, as a GM I'm of the mind that mounted combat is a pretty niche specialization as it stands, with lots of times it's just not possible, applicable, or practical, but as a player, I am absolutely in love with this particular cavalier concept I've been trying to run in a game to completion for ages (so far he's only ever managed a few scenes till the game died on me). Suffice to say, I have a conflict of interests as the two feats are separately or in conjunction very favorable for a cavalier, or anyone else taking advantage of the classic image of a mounted warrior/knight/etc. and I want to put it to you all whether these make sense to you as fair rulings, obviously exploitative, not what Paizo intended, yadda-yadda-yadda.

The Feats in question are Furious Focus (on the Power Attack Tree) and Death From Above (standalone Feat). As for how they interact with mounted combat, well . . .

1) Furious Focus- So Read-As-Written Text for the Feat is as follows: "When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn." My question is how this relates to the use of a Lance. Clearly this is a gem of a Feat at lower levels when Power Attack is most valuable and you only have one attack each round anyway, but the benefit to utilizing this particular Feat on a Charge, with a Lance, while Mounted, seems to increase it's value several fold to my mind. The advantage being that the +2 bonus you receive from Power Attack is multiplied just like the rest of your damage with a lance on a charge (I'm fairly certain about that point), and since a Lance is a Two-Handed weapon, the opportunity to use it every time you charge at no penalty to attack seems simply too good to pass up. The text however does seem to suggest that the spirit of this feat is intended specifically for wielding weapons in both hands (whether necessary or not) rather than a couched lance. What say you playgrounders?

2) Death from Above- This one seems mostly for flavor, and seriously niche as it specifically applies to "Whenever you charge an opponent from higher ground, or from above while flying . . ." the latter of which might be more common at higher levels, but for the most part isn't something players are usually in a position to take advantage of (unless they're really making a point of it, using barricades, etc.). Thing is, if you read through the rules for mounted combat (not the Feat, the subsection of the Combat Rules) it states "When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground." Now, I know plenty of players (and GMs) who forget to apply that particular +1 bonus, because it's easy to forget, but assuming you're riding a Large horse, that +1 applies to every Medium creature you could care to face. Furthermore, it's explicitly stated as an application of the bonus from Higher Ground. So, by taking the Death from Above Feat, that would give you a +5 bonus on all charge attacks you make, yes?

Let me know what you guys think, I'd love to start a little discourse about this, as mounted characters so rarely get a spotlight and in my humble opinion could benefit from a little optimization.

Who knows, I might take what can be learned here and write up my own Mounted Combat Guide for Cavaliers and the like.

That's a lot of words to say that using two feats, a mounted character can make sure they hit most of the time. Hitting is not usually a problem with mounted characters. They charge in and they do big damage. That's a given. The bigger problem is being in a position where a mounted charge is a viable combat tactic, which usually isn't the case due to several factors: the size of a rider's mount in a typical adventure's environment, difficult terrain that impedes their charge, the fragility of most mounts, needing to invest skill ranks, feats, class features and gold into making sure that you can actually expert to have a combat capable mount and use it, etc.

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Originally Posted by dystmesis View Post
That's a lot of words to say that using two feats, a mounted character can make sure they hit most of the time. Hitting is not usually a problem with mounted characters. They charge in and they do big damage. That's a given. The bigger problem is being in a position where a mounted charge is a viable combat tactic, which usually isn't the case due to several factors: the size of a rider's mount in a typical adventure's environment, difficult terrain that impedes their charge, the fragility of most mounts, needing to invest skill ranks, feats, class features and gold into making sure that you can actually expert to have a combat capable mount and use it, etc.
All the more reason to make sure said Feats are worth the investment.

Typical adventure environment being a dungeon yes? Difficult terrain is obviously an impediment, but I've never understood why in a game of abstractions you can't just let the character riding the horse duck in order to make it through doors. Sure it'd be inconvenient as hell having to do that through every room in real life, but so would 90% of the other elements of adventuring we take for granted in playing this game.

At any rate, I'm open to the usual suggestions of getting around those, and I don't just mean restricting myself to wilderness campaigns and/or playing a halfling paladin. I've done it once, it was fun, but at some point every player just wants to be a properly armored knight on horseback, am I right?

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Originally Posted by ChaosDemon29 View Post
Typical adventure environment being a dungeon yes? Difficult terrain is obviously an impediment, but I've never understood why in a game of abstractions you can't just let the character riding the horse duck in order to make it through doors. Sure it'd be inconvenient as hell having to do that through every room in real life, but so would 90% of the other elements of adventuring we take for granted in playing this game.
sure you could be abstract about it but those who have actually seen a horse before, in person and up close, will know it's not a matter of ducking your head. the horse can do that and still fit but you need to completely press your body against it and hope the horse is a short one....

"inconvenient as hell" turns into impossible when logic comes into play. it's also impossible for both to fit at the same time mechanics wise; for the horse is a large creature and that implies a certain level of height despite the horse being long.


are you sure you wouldn't rather tame a dire wolf and pretend to be a druid in close quarters? you could easily give him a few teamwork feats and make the duo much tougher. it would also be nice if more games focused on bigger locations able for mounted combat. despite the rules allowing such most require you invade a building for the quests.

A properly armored knight on horseback needs the right kind of environment. A dungeon is not that kind of environment anymore than a swamp or the city slums is. They shine on the open field of battle, and need to get off the darn horse pretty much anywhere else. Sure, you CAN abstract it all away, but if it doesn't leave you feeling at least faintly silly and wondering why the world makes no sense, you're a very different person than I am. Which is OK, but you have been warned.

My thoughts. If I was GM. Don't disagree with much that has been said.

1. Furious Focus. To me it seams a Lance is made only for one handed. I don't see it being able to be used with both hands. A Spear or Longspear... maybe from a horse. But really - other than a bow. I think one-handed 'works' better for balance, horse's head in the way, etc. The Lance helps in that you do double (or what have you) damage if Mounted Charge. And so can do lots of damage even with a shield. Up to you if you want to add in Power Attack for less to hit chance or not.

2. Death from Above. I have not really read it much or seen it in Play. Haven't been in a mid to late levels game in a long time and not in Pathfinder. What you typed seem roughly, probably right. I'm not much to confirm or deny or what have you on that matter.

Overall - what others have said I mostly agree with. What I have seen work fairly well. Even indoors. Is a halfling (or gnome, etc could work) on a riding dog. With a Lance sized for him. Got in some charges. Didn't take up a ton of space. Lots of AC. Charge and Lance sort of made up for less Str. Was a neat build and PC.

You still can have issues with like ladders and such and some times where even a small PC and Mount do not work. In which case just fight on foot and maybe dog can help flank. Or at least not be as in the way. But much more times where even in some areas where it would not work for a horse, etc - it can work. And not be quite as 'really?' / require as much suspension of disbelief so to say.

Just my thoughts as GM and what I've seen. Good luck and happy gaming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rena_ishtar View Post
sure you could be abstract about it but those who have actually seen a horse before, in person and up close, will know it's not a matter of ducking your head. the horse can do that and still fit but you need to completely press your body against it and hope the horse is a short one....

"inconvenient as hell" turns into impossible when logic comes into play. it's also impossible for both to fit at the same time mechanics wise; for the horse is a large creature and that implies a certain level of height despite the horse being long.


are you sure you wouldn't rather tame a dire wolf and pretend to be a druid in close quarters? you could easily give him a few teamwork feats and make the duo much tougher. it would also be nice if more games focused on bigger locations able for mounted combat. despite the rules allowing such most require you invade a building for the quests.
Well those who've seen a Dire Wolf in person and up close . . . Oh wait, this is a game about fantasy combat. How does the Dragon even get into the dungeon with the tight passages it can't possibly squeeze through? Why does armor make you harder to hit instead of reducing the amount of damage you take? Why does this one point have to conform to real world expectations when 99% of the game doesn't hold up?

Wilderness adventures are a big help, I'll be the first to admit, but so long as the GM's willing to work with me to make the class work the way is most fun for everyone, it shouldn't be a problem right?

Anyway, not really what I wanted to make this thread about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leons1701 View Post
A properly armored knight on horseback needs the right kind of environment. A dungeon is not that kind of environment anymore than a swamp or the city slums is. They shine on the open field of battle, and need to get off the darn horse pretty much anywhere else. Sure, you CAN abstract it all away, but if it doesn't leave you feeling at least faintly silly and wondering why the world makes no sense, you're a very different person than I am. Which is OK, but you have been warned.
Immersion is paramount for me as well, but it also doesn't hinge on nitty gritty details like whether you can pull off some crazy trick riding to make it possible to use your mount in doors. I agree that the Knight's chance to shine comes in an open combat zone, but that doesn't mean he has to be crippled everywhere else, just that his teammates should be using that as their chance to shine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Caleb View Post
My thoughts. If I was GM. Don't disagree with much that has been said.

1. Furious Focus. To me it seams a Lance is made only for one handed. I don't see it being able to be used with both hands. A Spear or Longspear... maybe from a horse. But really - other than a bow. I think one-handed 'works' better for balance, horse's head in the way, etc. The Lance helps in that you do double (or what have you) damage if Mounted Charge. And so can do lots of damage even with a shield. Up to you if you want to add in Power Attack for less to hit chance or not.

2. Death from Above. I have not really read it much or seen it in Play. Haven't been in a mid to late levels game in a long time and not in Pathfinder. What you typed seem roughly, probably right. I'm not much to confirm or deny or what have you on that matter.

Overall - what others have said I mostly agree with. What I have seen work fairly well. Even indoors. Is a halfling (or gnome, etc could work) on a riding dog. With a Lance sized for him. Got in some charges. Didn't take up a ton of space. Lots of AC. Charge and Lance sort of made up for less Str. Was a neat build and PC.

You still can have issues with like ladders and such and some times where even a small PC and Mount do not work. In which case just fight on foot and maybe dog can help flank. Or at least not be as in the way. But much more times where even in some areas where it would not work for a horse, etc - it can work. And not be quite as 'really?' / require as much suspension of disbelief so to say.

Just my thoughts as GM and what I've seen. Good luck and happy gaming.
1. Actually, the Lance was originally designed for use with two hands, the 'couched lance' technique we're all familiar with from Knight's Tale and other films is much more 'modern' and a military lance actually looks a lot closer to a spear than the tourney lances flavor art usually depicts.

2. I think it's one of those things that it's niche enough that if the GM really thinks your exploiting it, they just have to start throwing ogres at you instead of medium sized creatures (again, taller ceilings in the dungeons make everyone happy).

The Hafling Lancer is usually the 'optimal' solution, and it even has a certain mythological flair to it (Faerie Knights were said to ride Welsh Corgies into battle). I guess for ladders and the like, the solution is to carry enough rope to haul your horse up after you xD

Cool history / background on the Lance.

Went and read the listing for Lance - "while mounted a Lance can be wielded in one hand". Not that it must be. So I think you can use Furious Focus. Giving up a shield. But probably worth it.

Meant to mention then forgot. I read someone mention an item, a Figurine of some kind. (I don't think cheap.) That a mount or animal companion could turn into or meld into when need be. And then 'come out to play' after ladder scaled, space opens up, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Caleb View Post
Cool history / background on the Lance.

Went and read the listing for Lance - "while mounted a Lance can be wielded in one hand". Not that it must be. So I think you can use Furious Focus. Giving up a shield. But probably worth it.

Meant to mention then forgot. I read someone mention an item, a Figurine of some kind. (I don't think cheap.) That a mount or animal companion could turn into or meld into when need be. And then 'come out to play' after ladder scaled, space opens up, etc.
A wand or scroll or simply a caster who can Reduce your Horse through Transmutation and then dispel it would be nearly just as handy. I can see it now, shrinking the mighty warhorse down to the size of a good dog, then carrying it around in your arms all cute like.





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