Gaming Discussion

For all things gaming related.


Some Feats

   
Some Feats

Alright, so here are some feat ideas I came up with. Some of them seem really powerful but they have some logic behind them. I will further explain why I think each of these feats is not as bad as it seems tomorrow. Currently I'm a little too tired to do such a thing.
Anyway, I want some criticism, comments, questions, and ideas about each. Some have additional expansions which I will also not post today.

Defense Weapon
Your defensive techniques, though highly advanced, heavily rely on the presence of one weapon.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with one weapon.
Benefit: Choose one one-handed or two-handed weapon you are proficient with. While wielding this weapon you gain a +1 Shield bonus to armor class. When wielding this weapon in each hand you instead gain a +2 Shield bonus to armor class.
Special: While not wielding any of the weapons chosen through this feat you suffer a -1 penalty to armor class as a result of your reliance on a single or a handful of defensive weapons.
You may choose this feat multiple times. It's effects do not stack. Each time it applies to a different weapon.

Combat Parry
You can deflect the attacks of others with your weapon.
Prerequisites: Defensive Weapon, Base Attack Bonus +6.
Benefit: You may use your Defense Weapon to parry attacks when taking the full attack action. This is done by forgoing attacks with it. You may forgo some, all, or only one of the iterative attacks you are eligible to when taking a full attack action. You may not forgo attacks granted from feats, spells, and magical weapon qualities with the exception of wielding two weapons (see special).
By forgoing an iterative attack you are granted a Shield bonus of a fifth of its total attack bonus (minimum of +1) until the beginning of your next turn. Do not apply target-specific modifiers such as those granted by Bane or a Favored Enemy -- apply only modifiers that apply to all targets, such as your Strength or Dexterity modifier, the weapon's general enhancement bonus, and feat bonuses such as from Weapon Focus. You may apply temporary but not target-specific bonuses to your attack bonuses for the purpose of determining the Shield bonus you gain from forgoing attacks. If some condition, such as fighting with two weapons, causes you to suffer a penalty to your attack bonus you must include it when calculating the Shield bonus gained from each attack.
When you forgo more than one attack the Shield bonuses you gain from each stack with themselves. That is, by forgoing 2 attacks with an attack bonus of +18/+13/+8 (the 1st and the 2nd) you gain a Shield bonus of +5.
Special: When fighting with two weapons you may forgo the iterative attacks you gain from your off hand weapon (you only gain iterative attacks if you have the Two Weapon Multi-attack feat) just like with your primary weapon. The Shield bonuses you gain from each weapon stacks just like when forgoing multiple attacks with the same weapon.

Example: Marcus the Fighter is wielding a longsword in each hand (longswords are Marcus' Defense Weapon). Having the Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Combat, and Two Weapon Multi-attack feats and 2 attacks per round, his full attack bonuses look like this: +15/+10 // +15/+10. Marcus decides to forgo his second attack with one of his weapons and both attacks with the other using the Combat Parry feat. This grants him a Shield bonus of +7 to armor class until the beginning of his next turn. Note that this bonus does not stack with Marcus' normal +2 Shield bonus for wielding his Defense Weapon in each hand.

Full Shield Defense
Where others would use their great two handed weapons to attack opponents with great power, you maneuver your shield to block devastating attacks.
Prerequisites: Shield Specialization (Heavy or Light), Base Attack Bonus +6.
Benefit: When wearing a light or heavy shield and taking a full attack action you may increase the Shield bonus it grants to armor class by a third your highest attack bonus until your next turn. You cannot bash or otherwise deal damage with your shield, even with the I. Shield Bash feat, and still take advantage of this feat.

Shield Slam
You can attempt to unbalance opponents with attacks made with your shield.
Prerequisites: Shield Specialization (Heavy or Light).
Benefit: As a part of a full attack action you can attempt to make a shield slam attack with a shield you wear. This attack is a touch attack made at your highest base attack bonus, though with a -5 penalty. If you hit the target creature with this attack you can attempt a Strength check opposed to the target's Constitution check to unbalance that creature. You gain a +2 bonus on this check if you have dealt damage to the creature this round and an additional +2 bonus if you are wielding a Heavy shield. Creatures gain a +4 bonus on this check for every size category they are larger than medium and a -4 penalty for every size category they are smaller than medium.
If the check succeeds the target suffers a -2 penalty to armor class until the end of your current turn. For every 5 points your check result is greater than the target's increase this penalty by an additional -1, up to the maximum of -5.

Two Weapon Combat
You can effectively wield a weapon in your off hand.
Prerequisites: Dex 13.
Benefit: When fighting with two weapons you take a -4 penalty on off hand attacks and as a -2 penalty on primary hand attacks. If you wield a light weapon in your off hand you instead take a -2 penalty on both off hand and primary attacks.
This feat also allows you to make as many iterative attacks with your off hand weapon as with your primary weapon when taking the full attack action.
Normal: A character wielding a weapon in her off hand suffers a -10 penalty on attacks with the off hand and a -6 penalty on attacks with the primary hand when attacking with both weapons as a part of a full attack action. Wielding a light weapon in the off hand decreases these penalties by 2 for each hand.
A character wielding a weapon in her off hand can make a single attack with it when taking the full attack action.
Special: If you are a Drow you face a special restriction when you select this feat. If you attack with two different scimitars in a single round you instantly enter a state of utter, excruciating agony that lasts for eternity while you are held in suspended animation (similar to Temporal Stasis). You gain no save against this effect. Only the direct intervention of a deity may release you from this state, but all deities hate you.
Also, the scimitars turn into teddy bears.

Skilful Two Weapon Combat
Your ability to wield two weapons has improved.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Base Attack Bonus +3, Two Weapon Combat.
Benefit: Decrease your two weapon fighting penalties by 2 for each hand.
Normal: A character fighting with two weapons using the Two Weapon Combat (or Two Weapon Fighting for that matter) feat suffers a -2 penalty on attack rolls with each hand when wielding a light weapon in the off hand or a -4 penalty on attack rolls with each hand when wielding a one-handed weapon in the off hand.

A) Nerfed TWC, added STWC
B) Removed the Rend thing.

These are some interesting feats here, and I like a few of them. I'll have to think about them a little more, maybe with some playtesting before I can tell you what I think. Right now, the only thing I noticed right away is this:

Defense Weapon.
One of the benefits should be modified and listed under Special. "While not wielding the chosen weapon you suffer a -1 penalty to armor class."

With that in mind, you might want to modify:

"When wielding this weapon in each hand you instead gain a +2 Shield bonus to armor class."

"While not wielding the chosen weapon you suffer a -1 penalty to armor class."

to:

"When duel-wielding the chosen weapon(s), the effects stack, resulting a total of +2 Shield bonus to Armor Class."

"While not wielding the chosen weapon(s) at all, the character suffers a -1 Shield penalty to Armor Class."

---

Because if I take this feat two times, one on a rapier and one on a shortsword, I want to be able to just wield my rapier with my light shield without causing the penalty.

And by Shield bonus I presume that it does not stack with any AC bonus provided by shields, correct?

Or did you mean Dodge bonus?

Wow. Someone actually replied.

But yes, you are right. I will change it immediately.

And the bonus is a Shield bonus, meaning it will not stack with shields. This is because you are meant to use your weapon as a shield -- that is, deflect things with it.

Anything to say about the other feats? BTW, I changed some of the mechanics.

I still need more time to think over these. I'll post on a regular basis to let you know what I think about them.

Right now, IMO, the TWF/TWM are overboard and unbalanced. You might want to refer back to the PHB and look at the standard feats. My reason is, full double attack with full bonus? If you just look at the character's attributes and damages (and str modifiers), it sounds balanced, but more attacks have a greater implicit advantage as the game progresses.

To make my reason clear, i.e. imagine two level 16 fighters. One of them specialized in your TWF/TWM feat and uses a rapier and a shortsword, the other specialized in a two-handed greatsword.

Level 16? Well, it shouldn't be surprising (under standard situations) that they can have:

+2 Holy Rapier and a +1 Flaming Burst shortsword.

vs

+3 Shocking Burst greatsword.

Using your mechanics, the TWF fighter gets extra 2d6 on every successful attack with Holy, and another 1d6 fire damage on every successful attack (1d10 if a crit happens). If he can hit as often as the second one can, and he has double chances to make that happen - IMO, way unbalanced. Not to mention Vorpal effects (if he used slashing weapon instead) later on.

(I'm not flaming you, and please don't take my comments as an offense. I'm putting my opinion on the board here. )

I'll give you more thoughts when I actually get to test them. Right now Combat Parry looks great to me. You might want to include this following restriction for Combat Parry, though.

- Combat Parry cannot be used in the same turn with Combat Expertise.

Reason? Combat Parry at the moment only looks at the BAB progression, and CE does not penalize BAB, yet it grants even more AC.

Hope my text doesn't sound hostile or indifferent.

Well, I'm not offended, but I think you didn't perform any mathematical analysis on the matter. Having just made a 5-minute check, I can say that the new TWF feats are hardly too much.

The general consensus (and this is supported by solid mathematical evidence) about TWF is that it is generally underpowered, as written in core. Things like my fix are fairly common.

More importantly, my feats still do not cause THF to be eclipsed, as the mathematical analysis I have just performed proved. THF characters will still deal more damage with just PA than TWF characters will deal with both TWC and TWM, though that's still alright, since there are other factors that balance this out (Multi-attack Rend and additional Shield bonuses, namely.

If you want to know how I performed the analysis, well, it is very simple. Using these:

These are some fairly simple maths equations I cooked up in my spare time. Pretty simply to understand, I think.

I have not yet tried your
because I'm not convinced of its source, yet.
equation. Can you explain where you get that 400 from, and how did you get the second equation?

Anyway, here's a simple logic to defend my stand. This is simple enough that I won't need math to prove it.

Right now, with your TWF/TWM feats, both two-handed and two-weapon styles have the same attack bonuses, except the two-weapon styles get double attacks.

To make things easy, I will not consider critical hits at the moment. (if you do, you will find TWF better than the following example, because TWF crit more easily.)

It's simple as this: Since both has the same chance to hit any AC, let us say they do: We don't even need AC and AB and whatnot. Let's say, with
Fighter 16. (TWF gets eight attacks)
four attacks, both of them missed
TWF hits four times, two-handed hits two times.
half of their attacks.


This can be even simpler. Since STR mod is applied equally (1.5 = 1.0 + 0.5) and they hit the same amount of times, we can safely
as well as excluding critical hits.
assume that it evens out with STR mods;
hence I will not include it here.

Weapon base damage. With my previous
Greatsword vs. Rapier + Shortsword.
2d6 (avg. 7 damage per hit)
1d8 + 1d6 (avg 8 damage per hit)
example TWF already have 1 point of advantage at this point.

Extra damage applied. With my previous
See previous post for the weapons.
example, TWF outdamage two-handed by 2d6 points. That's even more advantageous.

------Mind break------

If you put in critical chances, go ahead and try it. Since TWF
rolling 8 times vs. rolling 4 times
crits more easily, they will have more damage output with the same amount of hits (except they hit double times).

The above logic is excluding Power Attack.

------Mind break------

Besides damage, let's not even compare damage. Let's compare Attack chances.

Let's say the TWF is dueling rapiers (with all your feats available and is at level 16 Fighter) with Bursting effects.

Let's say the two-handed is also using a Bursting effect weapon.

Let's include
Remember, Rapier crits on 15-20 with Improved Critical feat.
ciritcal hits this time.

I trust you can just eye-ball this thing and are able to tell the result.
Go figure.

------Mind break------

Now, let's only consider magical effects.

TWF: duel-wielding +1
I'm looking at 3.5e rules here, so only a natural 20 followed by a confirmed critical will vorpal take effect.
Vorpal Sickles.

two-handed: +1 Vorpal Greatsword.

This should be very clear which one has more advantage with your mechanics.

------Mind break------

my 2 cp.

equation stuff

There are a couple of small flaws in my equations. Fix:

1) T = 21 - (AC - AB)
2) D = T(d - R + e)/20 + TC(d + v)/400


The 1st equation signifies the number of attacks that will hit in any 20 with the same attack bonus. It is derived from the fact that any attack has the chance of (21 - (AC - AB))/20 to hit. Example: Say AC - AB = 15 then there are 6 values that allow you to hit the target -- 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20.

The 2nd equation is derived from the following: in 20 attacks, you will deal D = 20(d+e) (total damage if all attacks hit) - (d+e)(20-T)(total damage of all attacks that miss) - RT (damage reduced from damage reduction of target) + TC(d + v)/20 (the number of times you will redeal your damage through critical hits times your standard damage plus extra damage on crits multiplied by the confirmation of a critical hit).
This equation assumes:
1) the number of attacks that will hit in 20 is greater or equal to your critical threat range, since if your threat range was 17-20 but you could only hit an enemy on 19 or 20 there would be no critical hit on 17 or 18. If the case is that C > T then C = T.
2) T >= 1 always. If 20 - (AC - AB) < 1 then let T = 1 instead, to signify a natural 20.
3) T < 21 always. If 20 - (AC - AB) > 20 then let T = 20 instead, to signify the chance of a natural 1.

The 400 comes from the confirmation roll multiplied (T/20) divided by 20 to find the expected average damage of a single attack. (1/20)^2 = 1/400, as you probably know.


First of all, TWC lowers your penalties by 4 for the primary weapon and 6 for the off hand weapon. That means your penalties would be -0/-2, not -0/-0.

Actually, criticals would favor two handed weapons since they deal much more damage per attack and thus multiplying that damage yields greater results. The fact criticals occur more often in TWF doesn't mean much.

Anyway, until you post some numbers to support your claim, you really can't prove the feats are overpowered. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but what you posted doesn't mean much.



Note: I changed the TWC penalty reduction to 6/8

*nods nods* I got your point. Somehow I have thought both hands get full AB because of this part:
Quote:
Example: Marcus the Fighter is wielding a longsword in each hand (longswords are Marcus' Defense Weapon). Having the Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Combat, and Two Weapon Multi-attack feats and 2 attacks per round, his full attack bonuses look like this: +15/+10 // +15/+10.
And my point is only valid when the weapons are enhanced with extra damage/magical effect things. A simple +4 or +5 enhanced weapon wasn't the case I was thinking.

To tell the truth, penalties on AB can never balance TWF and THF, because of the enemy's AC differences or extra occasions.

And... to be honest with you, I like
logical thinking
math, but I don't like calculations. I can see your way and how the equation works though.

This weekend I'm going to be busy, but I'll get back to you when I can. Not with a calculated proof though.

Updated and edited:

Can you clarify these two sentences?
Quote:
Benefit: When fighting with a weapon in your off hand decrease your penalties by 6 for your primary hand and 8 for your off hand. If you wield a one-handed weapon in each hand you suffer 0/-2 penalties and if you wield a light weapon in your off hand you suffer no penalties at all.
Quote:
Actually, TWC lowers your penalties to -0/-2 when wielding a light weapon in your off hand but I was thinking of improving it anyway, so let it just negate the penalties altogether:

Well, yes, I changed the penalties just now, since I saw TWF was still lacking.

You may have seen that I wrote:
"Note: I changed the TWC penalty reduction to 6/8"

Just below my post, which is an edit. Previously the feat reduced TWF penalties by 4/6, which would have reduced the penalties to 0/-2 while wielding a light weapon in your off hand.

Now the feat reduces penalties completely for when wielding a light weapon in your off hand and makes you suffer 0/-2 penalties when wielding a one-handed weapon in your off hand.

Regardless, the calculations were made with a light weapon in the off hand weapon at full BAB without penalty.
I also merged the TWC and TWM feats.

Man.. I had a tiring day today.

I'll go back and look at other feats for you tomorrow. I just recalculated your equation... and I found out that if the THF guy didn't have Speed, his damage would've been 1.915*26 = 49.79

That.. umm, is a big difference.




 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Myth-Weavers Status