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Pathfinder: [3.P] PrCs as gestalt

   
[3.P] PrCs as gestalt

What I'm thinking about is to make PrC levels not being instead of base class levels but in addition, basically as gestalt. You meet the requirements and get the PrCs hassis and abilities on top of your base class levels.
I made a similar thread some time ago but then I didn't go far enough. Now I'm trying to figure out if this houserule would be more favorable for mundanes/melee or casters, and if there's any issues with it that would screw with the game too much to bother.

The previous thread for reference (note that the idea above goes even further):

If your base class and the PrC both have the same feature (like Druids Wildshape and MoMFs Wildshape) you can choose which one you progress (normally the better progression, in this case MoMFs Wildshape).
And to deal with casting PrCs, we could make it so that no PrC progresses casting anymore, so if you want have full Wizard casting you have to go straight Wizard.

So... you would get something like Wizard 20 // Incantatrix 10 / Abjurant Champion 5 ? With the Gestalt PrCl levels not advancing casting.

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Now I'm trying to figure out if this houserule would be more favorable for mundanes/melee or casters,
Casters; they loose (next to) nothing, gain PrCl abilities and are still full casters. Wiz > Cle > Dru/Sorc, I'd say; 1 bonus feat every 5 levels is a small loss compared to 5 levels worth of abilities from PrCl (Wiz).

Casters. Always casters. Unless it's taking away caster levels, it's ALWAYS going to favor the casters. Pathfinder still has that critical flaw from its D&D origins.

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So... you would get something like Wizard 20 // Incantatrix 10 / Abjurant Champion 5 ? With the Gestalt PrCl levels not advancing casting.
Yes. How is that any different or more powerful then with normal rules? The Wizard gains, what? A few feats? Full familiar progression? That's nothing. Casting is his most powerful feature and Incantatrix/Abjurant Champion already progress it fully.

Some time has passed, the topic was more-or-less discussed on Minmaxboards and I am of the opinion that mundanes/lower tiers gain more from it.
TanaNari, read the OP again. I didn't ask who will get more powerful with it. Casters will always be more powerful. I asked who will gain more from it. Casters gain almost nothing. Mundanes gain a lot. That's the point of this houserule.

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Originally Posted by ImperatorK View Post
Yes. How is that any different or more powerful then with normal rules? The Wizard gains, what? A few feats? Full familiar progression? That's nothing. Casting is his most powerful feature and Incantatrix/Abjurant Champion already progress it fully.
It does eliminate the only drawback casting PrCl (can) have: Lost caster levels.

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TanaNari, read the OP again. I didn't ask who will get more powerful with it. Casters will always be more powerful. I asked who will gain more from it. Casters gain almost nothing. Mundanes gain a lot. That's the point of this houserule.
"Who gains more from it" can be synonymous with 'who gets more powerful with it'.

Using Gestalt rules means no two PrCl levels at the same time; effectively, all characters gain free bonus abilities from PrCl while maintaining the progression of base class abilities.

That and some of the *most powerful* PrC abilities come from classes that lose caster levels, but belong to casters.

None are ever worth the lost of caster levels except under very specific circumstances, but let's look at the various options.


There's a number of options in Heroes of Horror and BoED and BoVD that progress casting at half progression, while offering all kinds of truly fun spells (at will charm spells, greatly boosted familiars, stuff like that).

The Prestige Paladin class variant. Half casting. All the cool paladin tricks. It's a totally worthwhile 1 level dip for *any* cleric- since at the first level, you lose nothing of value and gain a few extra skill options and a better BAB and HD, and often worth taking to 3 (since it progresses casting each odd level), since lvl 2 is when it gets all the best paladin features. It's probably not truly worth the caster level, but it's still very tempting and often worth it for easy access to certain other PrCs.

Done your way, well, now you have what is effectively a paladin with full cleric casting. How's *THAT* for power increase?

Walker in the Waste (sandstorm) is a scary-powerful prestige class that is only mitigated by the lack of full casting progression. In the right (admittedly limited) situations, it's actually MORE powerful than a full caster would be.

There's a handful of the Drow and other Underdark PrCs that I can't be bothered to look for that are similarly godlike in their environs, and legitimately worth the caster loss if that's where your campaign is solely where your campaign will be held. Now they get to be full casters as well? Heh.

Actually, know what? All the regional books have at least one environmental partial casting PrC that's arguably worth the loss normally, but is absolutely ungodly if given back the rest of their progression.



EDIT: The only case you can make for this "granting more to mundanes" is scenarios which turn said mundane into a caster.

And... uh... well, if that's the argument you want to make, I can't dispute it. A wizard doesn't really gain a whole lot by being remade into a cleric. Some, yes, but not a whole lot. A fighter gains just about everything by being remade into a cleric.

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It does eliminate the only drawback casting PrCl (can) have: Lost caster levels.
There are plenty of PrCs that don't loose any caster levels, and the ones that do aren't really worth it, unless as dips (Mindbender or Spellsword come to mind), because the lost higher level spells are 10 times better. All this houserule does is give casters a few more PrCs they can take.

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"Who gains more from it" can be synonymous with 'who gets more powerful with it'.
Not really, because as I already said casters will always be more powerful, even without any PrCs. Meanwhile mundanes gain a lot from this, much more than casters.

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Using Gestalt rules means no two PrCl levels at the same time; effectively, all characters gain free bonus abilities from PrCl while maintaining the progression of base class abilities.
Exactly. And mundanes, who need any help they can get, are gaining more from it than casters.

What do you think about allowing both normal PrCing AND this houserule (with the added houserule that you can progress in PrCs on both sides of the gestalt)?

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There's a number of options in Heroes of Horror and BoED and BoVD that progress casting at half progression, while offering all kinds of truly fun spells (at will charm spells, greatly boosted familiars, stuff like that).
So? They're already T1 and T2.

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Done your way, well, now you have what is effectively a paladin with full cleric casting. How's *THAT* for power increase?
Prestige Paladin is an alternative option. You can use it with this houserule if you like, but that's you problem.
But I don't see anything wrong with that. It brings the Paladin to tier 1. That's good.

But it turns the paladin into a Full Caster. Which means it's now a caster. I covered that in the above post.

And then you have the combat caster wizard PrCs. Plenty of them out there that offer full BAB and good armor and all kinds of kickass abilities. But sacrifice a number of spellcasting levels.

You could start with a wizard and wind up with a caster using 9th level arcane spells in heavy armor and at the very least a 3/4 BAB.

You can't take a fighter and PrC him into a full caster. But you can take a wizard and PrC him into a full fighter.

The fighter starts at 1 and goes to 3. A wizard starts at 7 and goes to 10. Which gains more?

So? The goal is to make mundanes better, give them more options.

No, casters start at 10 and gain maybe 0,5.




 

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