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DnD3.5e: Character Class: Puppet Master

   
its a good point though.
I always, when either making a class, a varient for a specific campaign, or anything, i try and make whatever im making strong, but not too strong, playable, interesting, and possibly appealing to the player. now, on that note, i see the pros/cons here vs the bard
PRO: More specialized, focused
CON: bardic knowledge, bardic music
PRO: different applicable sizes and types of 'puppets'
PRO: interesting abilities
CON: synergy.
CON: Inspire competence, inspire courage, fascinate, contersong
PRO: perform isnt nessicary

the last bit, is very true. no where in my brief reading of this, is the nessecity to have ranks in Perform.
however, on optimizing, id go for a prestige class that happened to require 13 ranks in one skill(such as Craft, or Perform) and 13 ranks in diplomacy, taking it would allow me, in a sense to have particular better rolls on Craft(puppet) and Perform(Puppeteering) or whatever the correct term would be

i also find, using a bard, a couple well placed enchantments, and a couple permanancys, plus conversing with the DM, could make, more or less, an awesome Puppet that can talk, fly to an extent, climb walls, shoot rays of fire out of its eyes and whatever else I can think of.

So-so in regards to Naruto though I have a soft spot for Sasori. It mostly came about while I was reason my friends with a hand puppet about their DnD character coincidentally enough lmao...

As for the feel for the class, I could see it fitting close to any genre. Horror? Male a bloody, fanged puppet brigade. High fantasy? Make an armada of elegant better looking than thou puppets to contest those pretty boy elves. I never intended there to be a restriction to this class aside from imagination. Frankly, I tried to make it as open but controlled to cater even to my usual insane concepts. Such as my Steam Driven Warforged-Dragon.

In regards I had designed the class to not be as 'one-trick' as a bard in the way he simply plays his lute and hopes for good results. The puppet master could influence the difference between retreats and party wipes of he so chose to strategically place his puppets for that well needed flanking bonus or even make a sacrificial wall to keep that conveniently charging Minotaur from getting to the oh so squishy wizard.

Honestly, I don't understand what you meant about the Druid but could i assume you were trying to say the class is trying so hard to do one thing but ultimately failing at it in the long run?

Originally, I had considered giving his 20th level skill 3 powers instead of 2 or even giving it an Awakening Puppet ability at some point, but I felt that gave too many freebies in a sense so I left it out in the end.
Also, perform had been very tempting to play a role in the class, he still gets it but it would more or less be used if he wanted to make a stereotypical Quartet or band out of his puppets.

Your answers give the slight impression that these puppets could be made instantaneous. Is that the case? If so, then I'll just summon monsters with a puppet flavor instead. If you have to craft them ahead of time, then I would hope that the player wouldn't simply want to toss them about as battle fodder. Far too many people already do that with their familiars or noncombatant animal companions. Crafting them should give the same amount of connection as the flavor behind familiars and companions. I would hope using them as sacrificial walls would be... well, hurt the Puppet Master in some way. I'm still a big proponent of the -1 to Wisdom when the animal companion dies.

The druid comment was in regards to the idea that building your character up to the point that he/she could create Boguns. It takes a lot of work and a lot of hamstringing on the player's part for them to be a part of a game. Does it have a true payoff in the end? I wouldn't know, since most games (tabletop or here) don't last long enough for my insane obsession of seeing if they will work to come to fruition. I mean, they're size tiny creatures made up of body parts and magic. Puppets are made up of materials and magic. I jumped to a connection, maybe there isn't one.

yeah, it seems more on the lines of applying a template to an existing creature, rather than building a creation, that doesn't, in a sense have to be anything in particular

The puppets do give Penalties for being destroyed, large ones when combo'd together, but it was the gallant sacrifice I was trying to portay. Sure, the PM loses both his money and time spent into the puppets, but he saves his party in the end even if he does get a little sick. -1 to -5 for EVERYTHING when a puppet is destroyed.


But no, puppets are Made not magic'd up with a spell. It is not unlike the Effigy Maste prestige class in Complete Arcane, just made into a base class and somewhat cheaper. In regards to their end payoff I would imagine they would. If you noticed there is a weapon both on the puppet and for the master to enjoy, essentially a better whip, that let's them be helpful right from the start even with their chosen puppet. Mind you, in the beginning even a goblin can give a hard time of you roll bad and that is no different from the chosen beginning puppet.

In the end the PM has several weapons on his side with different attributes not unlike the stereotypical fighter. Theoretically, you could make the Puppet master like any other caster and depend mainly on his spells to assist the party and make the puppets the loot boxes.
Like I said, try not to think of them so linear. They have a little of everything to make them useful

Ah, I just looked up Beget Bogun and it most certainly isn't that grueling to make a puppet. At most it would take a week or longer if you keep failing but definitely not that long. Honestly, I didn't even know that spell existed. Thank you for pointing it out in case I need to edit the class for anything.

Well initially looking at the class, I would say the spell list needs to be revised as there are many spells on there that do not fit the concept at all, whether as a trickster or puppet maker.

Next, the new exotic weapons need their damage die dropped to 1d3, as the whip is and have no effect on anyone wearing armor with a rating of higher than 1.

What else....

Instead of having all of these permanent constructs the character can haul out of a haversack, I would suggest having it mirror the bard's music ability. The Puppeteer can 'activate' a puppet and have it do whatever it is it does as long as he concentrates and perhaps for a few rounds after. At higher levels (maybe where he gets increased bardic music) allow him to activate multiple puppets.

As for the penalty for losing puppets, it is way too lax. A couple rounds of penalties? Which equates to less than a minute. That is all his masterful creations mean to him? No, considering their potential power, I think the idea of a -1 WIS for each is more like it. Of course there should be some kind of tradeoff as summoning monsters to fight for you does not cost you anything for when they die; but the puppets extra abilities probably balance this out.

I will consider more later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blick View Post
Well initially looking at the class, I would say the spell list needs to be revised as there are many spells on there that do not fit the concept at all, whether as a trickster or puppet maker.

Next, the new exotic weapons need their damage die dropped to 1d3, as the whip is and have no effect on anyone wearing armor with a rating of higher than 1.

What else....

Instead of having all of these permanent constructs the character can haul out of a haversack, I would suggest having it mirror the bard's music ability. The Puppeteer can 'activate' a puppet and have it do whatever it is it does as long as he concentrates and perhaps for a few rounds after. At higher levels (maybe where he gets increased bardic music) allow him to activate multiple puppets.

As for the penalty for losing puppets, it is way too lax. A couple rounds of penalties? Which equates to less than a minute. That is all his masterful creations mean to him? No, considering their potential power, I think the idea of a -1 WIS for each is more like it. Of course there should be some kind of tradeoff as summoning monsters to fight for you does not cost you anything for when they die; but the puppets extra abilities probably balance this out.

I will consider more later.
I think planning the progression after the bard's music is a great idea. Then, take a touch of Druid by making the puppets grow similarly to an animal companion. And finally, a piece of the necromancer, where different circumstances gives permenant buffs to his creations (puppets can be made using up to 3 special materials, and each material gives an innate buff to the puppet... like Ironwood for the body increasing its AC by 1 point for every 4 Puppet Master levels, or diamond eyes to allow the caster to use Clairvoyance at will, or baboon ligaments to increase the puppet's Dex score by a flat amount).

You know... I always tend to forget that rounds are so short. I'll lengthen the penalties to days at a time that reach a 5 day maximum. Mourning and all that good stuff.

I'll make sure to revise the spell list, It was a quick roll-up of spells that seemed fitting, but in no ways a permanent and set in stone one.

The Exotic weapon damage is reminiscent of a Razorwire trap which is effectively 2d6 and 400 gp. It didn't seem right to completely weaken the wire further, which though thinner than a whip's cord, is sharper and does more damage.

The concentration checks to move the puppets HAS to be done each round, sure at one point it would be possible to never fail controlling all five and instead force the puppet master to only move one puppet at a time, but the control (in my opinion) is still there. I would be willing to raise the DC to controlling more puppets to maybe 6-10 per puppet, but I wouldn't want to cripple class too much and have it lose the main means of how it doles out it's damage aside from spells.




 

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