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hypothetical science question

   
Ok, what I learnt about the bible of Jerusalem is that it is built after the facts, meaning, after Jesus was resurrected, after He appeared to His disciples and taken away from them. It is built around texts, testimonies, that are not aimed at reporting actual facts, actual historical events of the life of Jesus, like a biography would do; but are aimed at telling us who Jesus is, using the literary style of the time. That is why you find discrepancies between the gospels.

Nevertheless, it is built upon testimonies and life experiences of many.

And, I can not believe that two thousand and twelve years of Christianity, no matter how chaotic it might have looked like at times, can not count as a testimony of His presence and His live in our world today as He was then.

But, don't believe me. Believe yourself. Do your own checking. And, do some praying. It will help you in your research.

I better stop now, I start to sound like a Rabbi.

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
Ok, what I learnt about the bible of Jerusalem is that it is built after the facts, meaning, after Jesus was resurrected, after He appeared to His disciples and taken away from them. It is built around texts, testimonies, that are not aimed at reporting actual facts, actual historical events of the life of Jesus, like a biography would do; but are aimed at telling us who Jesus is, using the literary style of the time. That is why you find discrepancies between the gospels.

Nevertheless, it is built upon testimonies and life experiences of many.
There is no trustworthy evidence that says it was built on the testimonies and experience of many. It may as well be based on the experiences of one individual. It may have been fabricated from scratch. Again, not saying it had to be, but considering there are no trustworthy sources that say the Bible is based on one or many trustworthy testimonies, we should be careful with it.

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
And, I can not believe that two thousand and twelve years of Christianity, no matter how chaotic it might have looked like at times, can not count as a testimony of His presence and His live in our world today as He was then.
Whether Jesus lives in our world or not has little causal relationship with the existence of Christianity. In other words, it's as much a testimony of his existence as the turning of the planets is a testimony to magnetism. They're two superficially similar, but at the core entirely different and barely related things.

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
And, do some praying. It will help you in your research.
Research is the search of information. Prayer does not provide information. So, no. No, it will not. Careful, scrupulous analysis of the data will help with research, but until proven otherwise, it's safe to assume prayer will do bupkis for your research. Unless, of course, you can demonstrate a causal mechanism by which prayer would give one new information.

"It may have been fabricated from scratch" (Ikul). If it is the case, then prove it. About testimonies, you be the judge. Do you think whoever wrote the Bible told you the truth or not?

What do the planets turning around the sun testify to, if not to an unseen force called gravity? And, what do you think is the cause of the existence of Christianity today, if not the life and death and resurrection of Jesus, still present in our world today?

Praying may lead you to personal experience of Jesus. And, I believe personal experience is part of personal research. Doesn't personal research count too in science?

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
"It may have been fabricated from scratch" (Ikul). If it is the case, then prove it.
You asked for other alternatives. He gave you one.

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About testimonies, you be the judge. Do you think whoever wrote the Bible told you the truth or not?
It is not an either/or scenario. The authors may have meant to tell the truth but been mistaken, they may have been misinterpreted, they may have had their testimonies altered by later authors, they may have been speaking metaphorically or mythically, or they may have been batshit insane.

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What do the planets turning around the sun testify to, if not to an unseen force called gravity? And, what do you think is the cause of the existence of Christianity today, if not the life and death and resurrection of Jesus, still present in our world today?
By that logic, you should be Muslim and Hindu and Buddhist, etc. For what do you think is the cause of the existence of Islam/Hinduism/Buddhism today, if not the truth of everything they say about Mohammad/ Vishnu/ Buddha, etc, still present in our world today?

That should make it clear to you how woefully inadequate your logic is.

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Praying may lead you to personal experience of Jesus. And, I believe personal experience is part of personal research. Doesn't personal research count too in science?
No, subjective, non-reproducible personal feelings do not count in science.

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
"It may have been fabricated from scratch" (Ikul). If it is the case, then prove it. About testimonies, you be the judge. Do you think whoever wrote the Bible told you the truth or not?
He didn't say that's what happened, so there's no reason for him to prove it. You are claiming something, so the burden of proof is on you.
Whoever wrote the bible had no way of knowing whether he was telling the truth. How could we?

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
What do the planets turning around the sun testify to, if not to an unseen force called gravity? And, what do you think is the cause of the existence of Christianity today, if not the life and death and resurrection of Jesus, still present in our world today?
People believing in Jesus is enough to cause the existence of Christianity. Jesus isn't a necessity to explain that.

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
Praying may lead you to personal experience of Jesus. And, I believe personal experience is part of personal research. Doesn't personal research count too in science?
Whether you believe it or not does not make it science, so: no, the way you describe it, it does not count as science.

"It is not an either/or scenario". (Farland) Of course it is a yes or no scenario. Independently of the literary style that is used, do you, you Farland, believe that God exists, and that Jesus is His son, who died on a cross, then resurrected from the dead, and is now Heaven, because that is what the Bible testifies to. If your not happy with the Bible, because you think it is somehow flawed, then check Wikipedia, check other gospels that are outside the canon. They all are going to tell you about the same story: Jesus is a man who was seen alive after his death. It is a yes or no choice. Do you believe or not what people say?

All religions are based on someone. that is a fact, but are Mohammad or the Buddha alive today?

Whatever personal subjective experience you may experience in a prayer can be also experience by someone else who prays. It is a matter of sharing that experience and see how common we are.

To me, Farland said: "You asked for other alternatives. He gave you one". Which one was it. I must have missed it.

"You are claiming something, so the burden of proof is on you" (Bbender). I keep telling about the Bible, an assemble of scriptures, and other writings not included in the Bible, that spans over thousand of years and written by hundreds of people. I tell you about today's Christian Churches, that, in their own way, testify today to Jesus existence. And, yet, you keep shoving the whole with the back of your hand, saying that their testimonies might not be true because...

Guys, if you so don't believe in Jesus, if you don't believe the witness, who saw leave to the Heavens, why search for His body then? Why looking for scientific proof of His presence on earth?

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
"It may have been fabricated from scratch" (Ikul). If it is the case, then prove it.
It's not the case. Or at least, it's not necessarily the case. That's what the 'may' I've included means: that it is a possibility to be considered along with any other possibility, which cannot be rejected without good reason.

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
About testimonies, you be the judge. Do you think whoever wrote the Bible told you the truth or not?
I think I've said twice now that I don't have the information necessary to make that call - in fact, I don't think that information exists, at all, though I'm readily willing to retract my statement if the opposite is at least plausibly demonstrated.

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
And, what do you think is the cause of the existence of Christianity today, if not the life and death and resurrection of Jesus, still present in our world today?
The passing of the belief through the generations. Now, if Christianity would keep cropping up in people without them being told by their elders that's how things are, that would be an indication of some independent reason. It does, however, not.
As it stands now the cause of the existence of Christianity is the existence of individual Christians, who have all become such due to indoctrination by their teachers, parents, and other figures of authority.
It is well-documented that, on one hand, such indoctrination happens, and on the other, that it is sufficient to provide such effects.

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
Praying may lead you to personal experience of Jesus. And, I believe personal experience is part of personal research. Doesn't personal research count too in science?
Yes, you're right, personal research is absolutely vital.
However, it's not 'research' until it has been objectively measured and, preferably, quantified. Otherwise, you may, or may not, I'm again not making a claim either way, have imagined the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
You are claiming something, so the burden of proof is on you.
I dearly apologize, but I would very much appreciate it if you would not take it upon yourself to express blatant, bald-faced lies about what I said. I said it is a possibility. I did not say it is fact. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
"It is not an either/or scenario". (Farland) Of course it is a yes or no scenario. Independently of the literary style that is used, do you, you Farland, believe that God exists, and that Jesus is His son, who died on a cross, then resurrected from the dead, and is now Heaven, because that is what the Bible testifies to. If your not happy with the Bible, because you think it is somehow flawed, then check Wikipedia, check other gospels that are outside the canon. They all are going to tell you about the same story: Jesus is a man who was seen alive after his death. It is a yes or no choice. Do you believe or not what people say?
I'll tell you what I believe.
I believe this was established to be a discussion about a scientific question.
Therefore, what I believe, or what you believe, or what Farland believes, or what anyone in the world believes on the subject is entirely, fundamentally irrelevant. What's important is what we know and can deduce from objective data. And our objective data is insufficient to deduce one or the other with sufficient certainty. In other words:
It's not about 'believing', it's about 'knowing'. And I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Ikul View Post
I dearly apologize, but I would very much appreciate it if you would not take it upon yourself to express blatant, bald-faced lies about what I said. I said it is a possibility. I did not say it is fact. Thank you.
To be fair: he was just quoting me about him, not saying it about you.
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Originally Posted by Teedor the Great
Guys, if you so don't believe in Jesus, if you don't believe the witness, who saw leave to the Heavens, why search for His body then? Why looking for scientific proof of His presence on earth?
Out of curiosity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
I keep telling about the Bible, an assemble of scriptures, and other writings not included in the Bible, that spans over thousand of years and written by hundreds of people. I tell you about today's Christian Churches, that, in their own way, testify today to Jesus existence. And, yet, you keep shoving the whole with the back of your hand, saying that their testimonies might not be true because...
That's the thing, though. The bible spans hundreds of years - the older parts have suffered thousands of years of change, and were written at a time when, as far as we can tell by examining current texts, most texts written were of doubtful accuracy. The other parts were written hundreds of years after the event they're supposedly testimonies of. In most cases, they're third- and fourth-hand information at best, but even if it's not... if I ask you in, say, 200 years how well you remember what happened a week ago, how sharp will your recollections be?

And the existence of churches, as has been in detail explained to you, does not testify to the existence of anything but the possibility to pass on your beliefs to gullible children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
Guys, if you so don't believe in Jesus, if you don't believe the witness, who saw leave to the Heavens, why search for His body then? Why looking for scientific proof of His presence on earth?
Nobody here has claimed they don't believe in Jesus. Or rather, in the existence of a historical figure who was the prototype of the Biblical figure known as 'Jesus'. In fact, I don't think anyone but Teedor has made any definite claims regarding his existence at all. The thread is a matter of 'what if' more than anything:
IF such a prototype exists, and IF we find a body, how can we prove or disprove that one is related to the other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teedor the Great View Post
"It is not an either/or scenario". (Farland) Of course it is a yes or no scenario. Independently of the literary style that is used, do you, you Farland, believe that God exists, and that Jesus is His son, who died on a cross, then resurrected from the dead, and is now Heaven, because that is what the Bible testifies to. If your not happy with the Bible, because you think it is somehow flawed, then check Wikipedia, check other gospels that are outside the canon. They all are going to tell you about the same story: Jesus is a man who was seen alive after his death. It is a yes or no choice. Do you believe or not what people say?
No, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in Zeus, Jesus, Thor, or any other mythological deity.

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All religions are based on someone. that is a fact, but are Mohammad or the Buddha alive today?
Last time I checked, neither was Jesus.

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Whatever personal subjective experience you may experience in a prayer can be also experience by someone else who prays. It is a matter of sharing that experience and see how common we are.
It is neither reproducible nor empirical. It is not science. I am not sure you have a clear grasp of what science is.

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To me, Farland said: "You asked for other alternatives. He gave you one". Which one was it. I must have missed it.
Fabricated.





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