Hey all my fellow DMs,

I was having some thoughts about working to update and balance the system for d20 Wheel of Time. I know that it suffers from being caster-heavy and a shortage of balance among the weaves that casters can know, and I was thinking that a few tweaks could make the system fun to play for both casters and non-casters.

My main idea was to introduce maneuvers to non-caster classes. What are maneuvers, you ask?

Basically, we'd have to integrate some of the Blademaster Prestige class into the Armsman class, as well as integrating features of maneuvers into Algai'd'siswai, Noble, Wandered, and Woodsman classes. Essentially, it would give non-casters a limited number of spell-like abilities that would make non-casters fun to play. That's my hope, anyway.

And it's not like there's a precedent for stances and maneuvers being used in Wheel of Time, as they talk extensively about sword forms and stances; feel free to read more here: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_form

I'd also like to consolidate skills; and I would like to trade the skillpoint system for 'trained' and 'untrained' system, much like D&D 4th edition or Pathfinder. A bonus that's level dependent scales better and gives more power to feats that offer small bonuses to a skill (or multiple skills); also, I prefer it to the tedious process of chasing down skill points and worrying about level-dependent and cross-class problems.

I have a PDF where I've already started trying to balance out the Weaves, which you can check out for free here, if you'd like: http://www.4shared.com/office/UZaeFU..._Channell.html

Mostly efforts on that project ceased because I got a real job and didn't have time to balance out the rules and all the netbooks while also photochopping for images and doing layout for all the pages; what I do have, I am rather proud of. There are many typos and I'd need to revise the entire thing for this project.

If this thread is better served in another forum or place, I'd appreciate a MOD moving it to the appropriate setting.

If you have any comments, I'd be happy to hear them.

- Logain

Thank you for trying to balance that game. It needs all the help it can get.

But seriously, I've always loved the flavor of the system. Anything you can do to make the martial classes less like cannon fodder is a step in the right direction.

Well, here's a fine project!! I was kinda surprised at reading the D20 manual and seeing how poor the melee classes are. It kinda bugged me. Didn't give too much attention to the caster classes though.

The maneuver addition is greatly fitting to the setting and it'll add a very interesting detail to it. In a game I'm playing, I've adapted and upgraded the Algai'd'siswai class, making it slightly better. I can share it with you, if you want.

Would love to help you doing it. And then play it, if someone's up to the task.

Yeah, this looks pretty good.
I'm willing to play if you get a game up and running.

definitely willing to play

I looked over a few of the maneuvers from Tome of Battle last night, and ... I was not impressed. Maybe it's just because I was reading the 'desert wind' section, but every maneuver threw fire or had a fire effect. Mostly I want to have martial stances and attacks that are on par and as fun as the weaves can be.

I'll keep researching, but it seems like this might need some custom maneuvers to work how I'm seeing it.

- Logain

No, you'll have to go for the others that are more monk-like, as in Tiger claw, Diamond Mind and Devoted Spirit. Maybe those fit better.

If all else fails, I can just make my own, somewhere between the Maneuvers for Tome of Battle and the Powers for D&D4E.

P4yne, I'd love to read your version of the Algai'd'siswai class. I thought I had mentioned that, but apparently not.


- Logain

I've made it a 10-level class, due to the game's pace and 10th level limit, but it is easily amended.

HP: d10
BaB: as fighter
Saves: as Rogue
Sk. points: 4+ Int
Class skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Tumble
Gold: 3d4x10 gp

Weapon and armor proficiency: Simple weapons (except short swords. these are forbidden and he gains no xp if he uses on in an encounter), small shields. No armor.

• 1st level - Fast movement, Weapon Focus (Short Spears)
• 2nd level - Dance the Spears (+2 to Init), Improved Unarmed Strike (1d4 damage)
• 3rd level - Uncanny Dodge, Track
• 4th level - Stealthy Movement (ref base bonus to Hide and MS)
• 5th level - Unarmed Strike (1d6 damage), Trackless Step
• 6th level - Uncanny dodge (cannot be flanked)
• 7th level - Dance the Spears (+4 Init)
• 8th level - Camouflage
• 9th level - --
• 10th level - Hide in Plain Sight,

White Raven would be my first recommendation.

Desert Wind and Shadow Hand are the most 'magical' disciplines (though with some reflavouring, the latter does have some gems to choose from).

Adding maneuvers to the martial classes is certainly a step in the right direction and will narrow the gap between channelers and non-channelers. It won't, however, remove it.

You'll have to decide on your priority, especially when designing your own maneuvers: Balance vs. Fluff-faithfulness.

In the novels, it takes a channeler to stop a channeler. Full stop.