Worldly Talk

Civil discussion and debate on real world events and issues.

Batman Shooting

Originally Posted by Zuriel View Post
Your military service notwithstanding, I'm not convinced that having a shootout in a public place is a very good idea.
I would go so far as to say that having a shootout anywhere is never a good idea... Except when the alternative is that you (or others) are shot with no means of recourse.

Originally Posted by Michael Silverbane View Post
I would go so far as to say that having a shootout anywhere is never a good idea... Except when the alternative is that you (or others) are shot with no means of recourse.
The major problem I see is that Holmes used gas bombs and possibly flash bangs before entering the theater. In that situation it wouldn't matter if everyone brought a gun with them, because no one would be able to see him, and anyone that tried shooting would only cause more chaos and death.

I believe the police scanners even reported police needing back up because the first responders didn't have gas masks and they couldn't enter the room because of all the gas.

The major problem is that the shooter decided to kill those people in the first place. After that, all options are bad. Personally I would rather have options than not have them.

Originally Posted by Nexus75 View Post

If the Kleck studies are anything to go by, using a gun in self defense works! And most the time you don't have to fire a shot. However in a situation like this, a shot will definitely have to be used. Just because the media doesn't report on every single case of self defense doesn't mean it isn't happening. You also forget that stupidity and ignorance do wonders for someone without mental training. Just look at Zimmerman.
Originally Posted by Wiki Article Linked (Bolding Mine)
McDowall cites methodological issues with the Kleck studies, stating that Kleck used a very small sample size and did not confine self-defense to attempted victimizations where physical attacks had already commenced.[64] A paper by Kleck and Gertz said that they used an anonymous random digit dialed telephone survey, and did not know the identities of those interviewed. They completed 4,977 telephone interviews. They said that the quality of sampling procedures was well above the level common in national surveys, using a large, nationally representative survey.[74] A study of gun use in the 1990s, by David Hemenway at the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, found that criminal use of guns was far more common than self-defense use.[75] According to the Kleck study most successful preventions of victimization were accomplished without a shot being fired, which are not counted as a self-defense firearm usage by either the Hemenway or McDowall studies.[64][66][75] Hemenway considers that the Kleck figure is inconsistent with other known statistics for crime, citing that Kleck's figures apparently show that guns are many times more often used for self-defense in burglaries, than there are incidents of burglaries of premises whose occupants are awake and armed with firearms.[76] Hemenway concludes that under reasonable assumptions of random errors in sampling, because of the rarity of the event, the 2.5 million figure should be considered only as the top end of a 0-2.5 million confidence interval, suggesting a highly unreliable result that is probably a great overestimate, with the true figure at least 10 times less.
Quote the wiki, there are some significant issues with Kleck's methodology. I don't have time to try and dig out any papers, it's damn near midnight over here. But you have to be aware of these things when you cite a report. And also, you have to look not just at the US statistics, but the statistics of other nations with both similar and different firearms laws than the US. Take for instance comparing per capita gun murders in the US (4.14 per 100000) vs per capita gun murders in the UK (0.33 per 100000).

Originally Posted by Michael Silverbane View Post
I would go so far as to say that having a shootout anywhere is never a good idea... Except when the alternative is that you (or others) are shot with no means of recourse.
And in this case, logic dictates that it is highly unlikely that there was any altenative to what happened. You would have been a standing target, trying to aim through smoke, darkness and crowds of fleeing innocents to hit a heavily armored man with a headshot. I see no reason to believe that you wouldn't have almost assuredly brought certain harm to yourself and anyone near you at the hands of the shooter, not to mention anyone in your line of fire who you failed to notice while you were concentrating on getting that headshot without getting yourself killed.

Your stated intention to act heroically on behalf of innocent victims is admirable, but the chances of your being successful in this scenario are slim at best.

You talk as if the Police and Miitary are somehow above mere humans when it comes to firing a weapon....

They are, because they're trained to do so. Military more than police. Check the statistics for rounds fired vs. rounds hit by even modern cops, and especially WWII and interwar era soldiers. People are not mentally equipped to kill another human being, even when they're ostensibly about to kill them. It takes a very special mindset to do so easily and quickly under even ideal conditions.

I'm sorry, I just can't believe that. I was a good shot before I joined the military. And I'm pretty sure I'm not a
snowflake. I am pretty positive that there are people out there who have never had any sort of formal training that could out shoot most police and military personnel.

Maybe. But a) had you ever shot another human before joining the military? and b) do you honestly believe that every single gun owner is also just as competent as you apparently are?

No, not everybody is going to be. But any place that has any sort of Hunter population is bound to have a least one individual that can fire a weapon and hit the broad side of a barn. I mean, If we lived in the world you think we do that how the hell did we ever survive through the Hunter/Gatherer portion of civilization....?

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