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Worldly Talk

Civil discussion and debate on real world events and issues.


Naked Muhammad (now there's a catchy title)

   
Quote:
Originally Posted by impfireball View Post
I dunno if this is the exact time the arab world is most fragile more than any other time that could be pointed out after the crusades (pretty much). Would you consider the ottoman empire fragile (even if it doesn't exist today)?

I don't think muslims are fragile any more than they make themselves out to be - saying your fragile makes you fragile, only because you admit it. If you go forth and prove you aren't fragile then you won't be fragile. If you continue to play fragility, then you will remain fragile forever. It isn't a test of ego or shamelessness (although I'm sure many muslims wouldn't want to admit weakness even when emotionally showing it) so much as who has the right to intimidate whom.
This is true. Sure the Arab world has its problems. But as a people they are pretty tough and unrelenting when it comes to what they consider important. They almost never back down easily.

If you consider the debate surrouding this then, to be blunt, its not the Muslims which are being 'fragile'. It was Muslims who initiated the protests, but its not Muslims bending to accommodate their ideological opponents even at the cost of deeply held beliefs.

I didn't say Muslims were fragile, I said the world was. Perhaps "sensitive" would be a better description.

There was a nice opinion piece in our newspaper (in Dutch) recently, which I agree with. The basic message is: to a non-muslim there is nothing sacred about mohammed, so it cannot be blasphemy to portray him. In fact, claiming that it is blasphemy, is very arrogant and disrespectful of those muslims who are enraged. It implies that everyone should value Islam more than their own religion (especially those religions contradicting the sacredness of Mohamed, such as Christianity), which could be considered a slap in the face of most other religions and practitioners thereof.

While I find the movie (if it even exists, it might only be the trailer) distasteful, I find the protests to be a lot more distasteful. People didn't die because of the movie, they died because of the exaggerated reactions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
This is true. Sure the Arab world has its problems. But as a people they are pretty tough and unrelenting when it comes to what they consider important. They almost never back down easily.

If you consider the debate surrouding this then, to be blunt, its not the Muslims which are being 'fragile'. It was Muslims who initiated the protests, but its not Muslims bending to accommodate their ideological opponents even at the cost of deeply held beliefs.
Someone actually agreed with me? I'm apalled. I didn't think the universe was supposed to work that way. :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by impfireball View Post
Someone actually agreed with me? I'm apalled. I didn't think the universe was supposed to work that way. :P
No, you're wrong. (There, feel better now?) :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
If you consider the debate surrouding this then, to be blunt, its not the Muslims which are being 'fragile'. It was Muslims who initiated the protests, but its not Muslims bending to accommodate their ideological opponents even at the cost of deeply held beliefs.
So instead, we as the western world should bend to the beliefs of Muslims? We should be careful to not hurt the feelings of people thousands of kilometers removed from us lest they throw an anger tantrum? In the West we've developed civil liberties, with one of the most important ones being freedom of speech. Contrary to popular belief, this liberty exists to protect people that say things others don't want to hear in order to scrutinize and critically test certain ideas and one of these ways is through satire. Proper ideas can survive, and sometimes even respond to scrutiny. If we allow certain ideas to gain the status of unscrutinizable because people thousands of kilometers away refuse to "accomodate their ideological opponents" (though I don't see the accomodation part. Last time I checked France wasn't a muslim country) we're practically instating a dogma and limiting our civil liberties. Since the state's primary purpose is to defend these civil liberties, I'd favor military action once Muslims start burning embassies to pacify them over simply rolling over and accepting we can't scrutinize a people on a different continent lest we hurt their feelings.

And if you think I sound too strict, I dare you to look at the image below. I dare you to tell me this is not gravely insulting, implying that Christians are without exception intellectually lazy and/or stupid despite the great contributions of Christian thinkers. Now ask yourself "how many people were killed over this?". If your response is any number higher than 0, you're wrong. If that's not insulting enough, there's another picture below it that's debatably more insulting. If other religions acted like Islam I should start boarding up my doors right now, in case the Vatican launches a crusade aganst me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaeso View Post
So instead, we as the western world should bend to the beliefs of Muslims? We should be careful to not hurt the feelings of people thousands of kilometers removed from us lest they throw an anger tantrum?
If you find a killer bee hive, you don't walk up to it and start beating it with a stick.

Yes, well at least, free speech does not absolve you of responsibility for your speech. just because you can say something, should you? I really don't think the world needs parodies of Islam right now, for one thing they have been done to death.

if you find a hive of killer bees, you exterminate them.
Muslims are not killer bees. They have far greater capacity for reason and accountability for their actions. that is why we wait until *after* they respond violenetly and only exterminate teh violent ones. At least in theory. Practice rarely matches theory by 100% in any feild, which is why we also recomend to the 99% of Muslims who are not advocates of violence totry to be a moderating influence on your friends and neighbors- sometimes we make mistakes. Not intentionally, but it does happen.

Or, and here's a crazy idea: let's not go around advocating the extermination of people.




 

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