What would hapen if you had a creature with both the Dark Speech and Words of Creation feats? Could you combine the two to make a super language? A new feat: The Grey Tongue, language of truth!

And yes, as far as I can tell it is possible to do this, despite one being a Vile Feat and the other bieng a Exalted Feat. Since they both have the same requirements stat-wise, a character only has to worry about the Vile/Exalted restrictions. As far as I can tell, a villain with the Dark Speech feat who turns to good -or at least neutral- could theoretically learn the Words of Creation. Th stipulations of Vile Feats is that only Evil can learn them, and the stipulation for an exalted feat is that you cannot perform an evil act while posessing one. So long as the reformed villain does not use any of the evil aspects of Dak Speech, he should theoretically be able to have both feats.

And why would you want both feats? Mainly for the resistance to Dark Seech, but I've been considering homebrewing a feat that has both as its prerequisits. Anyone have any advice on what it should bestow?


Also, when one person uses any Dark Seech effect, could another person theroetically cancel it out using Words of Creation, since the two are polar opposites?

not as far as I know, but as a gm (and if i even allowed BoED or BoVD) I don't see why one wouldn't function as a countersong to the other. I would require a prepared action to specifically counter with the words though.

(Emphasis added)

Alright, but doesn't that still means that an Evil character could learn it and then be converted? Or does conversion cost you the feat? I undestand that rule-wise he wouldnt/shouldn't be able to use any of the action functions of Dark Speech, but would he still retain the r+4 to saving throws vs Dark Speech that the feat affords him?

As soon as you don't meet the prerequisites for something, you don't have it any more. Being evil is a prerequisite for Vile feats.

That said, I don't think they can be combined... you can't speak two languages at once, not even if one is [evil] and the other is [good] and both are magical.

Generally, yes. But that's not always true. A fallen paladin, for example, no longer counts as a paladin. EXCEPT for where the Blackguard is concerned. Blighter druids are another such example.

If his homebrew feat requires the two opposite language feats "even if the character cannot access that feat for any other purpose"- you have all you need.

Still- that's an *awfully* specific layout. It doesn't seem like anyone would ever have that EXCEPT to qualify for this homebrew. And that just begs the question "why?".

Yep, WHY? is a big question. Mostly the idea that each has words for the missing parts of the other (Dark Seech has no words for positive emotions and a bazillion words for the negative, Words of Creation are the reverse) got me to wondering if maybe they were two parts to one greater whole. Like there was something before all the little gods and demons/devils, but got broken into smaller pieces. Maybe it's an Epic Tier quest to learn both and ascend to Mega-Godhood, or repair the origional force of creation.

Seems more like you should be creating a homebrew class instead of a homebrew feat. Maybe a PrC for truenamers or something.

See second edition DnD. What you are theorizing already exists in DnD lore: the Language Primeval. The adventure path "Die Vecna Die!" gives details as do a few other books (like the book of Hell and a few others that slip my mind right now). And only characters with actual divine ranks can even speak a few words. In the adventure, Vecna himself had to go through a massive gamble that included destroying Iuz the Old and then absorbing his essence to even begin to have a chance to speak his incantation that would have allowed him, had the pcs not thwarted his plan, to take over Sigil and rewrite the multiverse. Incidentally, the events of Die Vecna Die were the last events of the DnD timeline before 3rd edition in Canon and were used as part of the in-universe explanation of the subtle changes in the cosmology, mechanics of magic etc.

Small hidden surpise that may take some DM approval, Master of Masks, has alignments that show from wearing various things. One in theory could regain past abilities while wearing said mask alignments.