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4e Confused about power levels

   
Unfortunately, the scaling of 4ed generates some distinct problems. For example, 20 or so first-level wizards can ambush and kill any demigod you'd care to mention. The prevalence of attacks that hit even when they miss makes combat all about numbers; and a good-sized mook ambush is the key to defeating your enemies.



This, unfortunately, seems to be the strategy they want the players to use against the monsters, too; given that big baddies like Orcus are walking around with seriously 1525 hit points. Nobody does any damage which is significant compared to that much life; so versus a boss monster, you're basically expected to adopt the WoW strategy of rounding up 30 max-level guys to run out and kill the boss.

Tldr; the power of a level-30 character is significantly less then 9000.

You mean it's possible for a group of low level characters to gang up and overpower a high level character?

*gasp!*

Something I've wanted for a long long time in DnD. I'm glad that they adopted it. Now 20 noobs with crossbows are actually somewhat threatening to just about anyone.

As for the wizard fight, if he doesn't have some resistances to damage by that point I'd be suprised. Force resist 5, Frost resist 5, etc....that'd give him an even better survival chance, since all those misses just deal 0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endovior View Post
Unfortunately, the scaling of 4ed generates some distinct problems. For example, 20 or so first-level wizards can ambush and kill any demigod you'd care to mention. The prevalence of attacks that hit even when they miss makes combat all about numbers; and a good-sized mook ambush is the key to defeating your enemies.



This, unfortunately, seems to be the strategy they want the players to use against the monsters, too; given that big baddies like Orcus are walking around with seriously 1525 hit points. Nobody does any damage which is significant compared to that much life; so versus a boss monster, you're basically expected to adopt the WoW strategy of rounding up 30 max-level guys to run out and kill the boss.

Tldr; the power of a level-30 character is significantly less then 9000.

The Character Optimization boards have level 30 characters that can solo Orcus...

But i'd say the samge is built around having 4-6 players run out and kill the boss

Any hit is not a critical. Any hit is merely a hit; a nat 20 is only a crit if you hit anyway.
In any case, a single character is not the unit of comparison for 4e. A party of four is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TechnoJesus View Post
I thought it was a party of five...
it is, says that pretty early on in the PHB, 6 players, one DM, encounters premade are for 5 PC's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endovior View Post
Unfortunately, the scaling of 4ed generates some distinct problems. For example, 20 or so first-level wizards can ambush and kill any demigod you'd care to mention. The prevalence of attacks that hit even when they miss makes combat all about numbers; and a good-sized mook ambush is the key to defeating your enemies.



This, unfortunately, seems to be the strategy they want the players to use against the monsters, too; given that big baddies like Orcus are walking around with seriously 1525 hit points. Nobody does any damage which is significant compared to that much life; so versus a boss monster, you're basically expected to adopt the WoW strategy of rounding up 30 max-level guys to run out and kill the boss.

Tldr; the power of a level-30 character is significantly less then 9000.
Hold on. What did you just do there? You compared two PCs against each other, and then brought what you learned there against monsters? The books say and suggest over and over not to make full-fledged characters with classes and pit them against the PCs, so I don't think knowledge gained from imaginary fights amongst PCs does anything but show what an evil campaign gone awry is like.

Also, its ridiculous to assume that it "seems to be the strategy they want the players to use against the monsters, too" and "you're basically expected to adopt the WoW strategy of rounding up 30 max-level guys to run out and kill the boss." because wizards designed the game for a party of five (plus or minus one).

Which brings me to another point: the game is designed for a party. If you, by some sick DM's decision, are facing a group of 10 level 1 wizards, you're doing it with four buddies who can deal damage, heal, control the battlefield, and defend weaker members.



To answer your question, Shaharazad:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaharazad View Post
Sadly, I'm just not understanding the new one very well. Perhaps the pieces will come together more once I actually play a character up to that level. Perhaps there are connections I'm not seeing yet which will enable 30th level characters to be more potent and diverse than what I am seeing.

But, I am not seeing it. And I want to. I want high levels to mean something.
Remember that "sweet spot" in 3.5e? It was somewhere around levels 6 and 15 where you had just enough abilities to have alot of options and not too many to lose track and slow things down. You were just powerful enough to feel really "super" but not gamebreaking. In 4E, WOTC set out to expand that "sweet spot" from level 1 to level 30. Therefore, your amount of options will remain basically the same throughout your career.

I suppose it also depends on your definition of "power." If you want to roll all the dice you can find for damage at 30th level, you wont find that in 4E (Except maybe on a critical hit. Those things are sweet higher on). But you influence combat in a larger way overall. You will be doing more damage (just not alot more), you'll be fighting extremely powerful enemies, and you'll be on world-changing quests on the path to immortality.

I made a 4E character at 30th level with a partner and we fought against some enemies just to see how it went. I gotta tell ya, 15 options+anything "bonus" from your class+magic item properties+feats was enough to keep track of. We had fun and I think that while a 30th level character's power level depends on the definition of "power", its option, influence, and fun levels are well over 9,000.




 

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