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Arcane Mastery Implement

   
Arcane Mastery Implement

Can this feature be changing at any time. I have Wand of Acuracy and would like to change to Staff of Defense. I found a Staff of War Mage +1 and I'm assuming I would need staff mastery to gain the enhancement.

Is this correct?

Thanks

John

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpr99 View Post
Can this feature be changing at any time. I have Wand of Acuracy and would like to change to Staff of Defense. I found a Staff of War Mage +1 and I'm assuming I would need staff mastery to gain the enhancement.

Is this correct?

Thanks

John
Your Arcane Mastery is a Class Feature that is simply a bonus if you use the particular implement. If you want to use the enhancements of the Staff of War Mage +1, you don't have to have Staffs as your Arcane Implement.

You might also be able to use the retraining option (I don't have my books with me so I can't check to see if it extends to class features that offer a choice) at level up to switch to another implement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrdkudzu View Post
You might also be able to use the retraining option (I don't have my books with me so I can't check to see if it extends to class features that offer a choice) at level up to switch to another implement.
It specifically mentions that you can only retrain on feat, power or skill selection you made previously. Doesn't list class features, per se. The arguement could go both ways... obviously something such as a warlock pact shouldn't be able to be retrained... but a wizards preferred implement? maybe...

Yeah, the book doesn't say one way or the other. If I was a DM I would allow it just this one time, then fill the world with great wands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanthar Mandragoran View Post
It specifically mentions that you can only retrain on feat, power or skill selection you made previously. Doesn't list class features, per se. The arguement could go both ways... obviously something such as a warlock pact shouldn't be able to be retrained... but a wizards preferred implement? maybe...
There's really no need to re-train your implement mastery, since you'll still get the enhancement bonuses and powers of the implement, even if it's not in the category you mastered. The only thing implement mastery lets you do, is use that one or two extra abilities listed on page 157 in the PHB, depended on what implement you chose.

Also, when going on a word-for-word basis, you would never be able to retrain a class feature because it's not listed as one of the things you can retrain. Even if you could retrain your class features, what would you replace them with? Nothing. For example, if the DM allowed you to consider "Prestidigitation" as a power (which would allow you to retrain it, due to it being labeled as a "power"), you would be able to retrain it...... but since there's no other cantrips to replace it with, it would do you no good. And, you can't replace your cantrips with other at-will powers, even if the DM says "your cantrips are powers", because that would effectively be breaking the limit of 2 at-will powers you're allowed to have throughout the entire game, unless you're human. Plus, even if you're human, you can't use your bonus at-will power on a class feature, since you get them automatically anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunStride View Post
There's really no need to re-train your implement mastery, since you'll still get the enhancement bonuses and powers of the implement, even if it's not in the category you mastered. The only thing implement mastery lets you do, is use that one or two extra abilities listed on page 157 in the PHB, depended on what implement you chose.

Also, when going on a word-for-word basis, you would never be able to retrain a class feature because it's not listed as one of the things you can retrain. Even if you could retrain your class features, what would you replace them with? Nothing.
Exactly my points. Letter of the rules does not allow for class features to be retrained.

However, you are incorrect in stating that there is nothing to retrain class features to. When there was a choice, there is something to have retrained to. Virtually every class has a choice in some of their class features - Rangers: Combat Type, Warlock: Pact Type, Wizard: Arcane Implement Mastery, etc. So IF the DM allows you to retrain these class feature (and as noted in the book DM adjudications rule), there is something to retrain them to.

Also, your comments about Prestidigitation are a bit shaky, pecause they are defined as powers. Currently, there are only 4 Cantrips and Wizards know them all. It is conceivable that WotC may (I highly doubt it because I can't think of any minor effect that isn't covered by these 4) release other Cantrips... at which point they may update the PHB to state something "You can choose 4 cantrips that you can use as at-will powers." You're point about not having something to retrain to would have been better made with Ranger's hunter's quarry or prime shot class features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanthar Mandragoran View Post
Exactly my points. Letter of the rules does not allow for class features to be retrained.

However, you are incorrect in stating that there is nothing to retrain class features to. When there was a choice, there is something to have retrained to. Virtually every class has a choice in some of their class features - Rangers: Combat Type, Warlock: Pact Type, Wizard: Arcane Implement Mastery, etc. So IF the DM allows you to retrain these class feature (and as noted in the book DM adjudications rule), there is something to retrain them to.
In the end, it all boils down to the PHB specifically not listing class features as a retraining option. There's a reason why you're supposed to put time and care into creating a character, so you won't regret what class feature path you've taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanthar Mandragoran View Post
Also, your comments about Prestidigitation are a bit shaky, pecause they are defined as powers. Currently, there are only 4 Cantrips and Wizards know them all. It is conceivable that WotC may (I highly doubt it because I can't think of any minor effect that isn't covered by these 4) release other Cantrips... at which point they may update the PHB to state something "You can choose 4 cantrips that you can use as at-will powers." You're point about not having something to retrain to would have been better made with Ranger's hunter's quarry or prime shot class features.
Prestidigitation is defined as a class feature / cantrip. True, they're listed under the "Wizard Powers" section, however to be more specific, they're listed in the class feature sub-section of the "Wizard Powers" section. I think it's a matter of opinion though. Since only four cantrips exist, you can't retrain them, because there's nothing to retrain them to. Like I stated earlier, cantrips aren't part of the At-Will spells, so if you retrained a cantrip for an actual at-will power, you'd effectively be breaking the game. As for other classes, the ranger for example, I don't think it would be right or fair to be able to retrain what path you chose (ranged or melee.) Because, by the first chance you'd get to retrain, you'd have already played with the free feat and / or bonuses of that path, so you'd effectively be breaking the game again. For example, if you chose the melee path first, but later retrained to ranged, you'd still get to keep the free toughness feat, as well as gaining the defensive mobility feat for free. That seems unfair to me.

I don't see how you'd keep Toughness if you retrained your Ranger combat style. It's part and parcel of that style so it would stay as long as you were Two-Blade and as soon as you retrained to Ranged you'd lose it.

However, retraining the combat style would be a big investment, as you'd have to retrain the majority of your powers over multiple levels. That in and of itself would be a deterrent to such a big change of character design. The player would have to have a very compelling reason (and not having fun with the old design is a compelling reason for me) to get me to allow such sweeping changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrdkudzu View Post
However, retraining the combat style would be a big investment, as you'd have to retrain the majority of your powers over multiple levels. That in and of itself would be a deterrent to such a big change of character design. The player would have to have a very compelling reason (and not having fun with the old design is a compelling reason for me) to get me to allow such sweeping changes.
Yeah... as a DM, for this level of change, I'd impose a few requirements:
1) An actual story reason (it could be spurred by an actual real life reason "It'd be more fun if I went two-weapon striker since our other striker is a warlock / ranged rogue... Okay, then write a story...)
2) Concerted effort to retrain some powers
3) Only at a Tier change (and I'd probably allow for a bonus power retrain or two at that point).

Something with as little effect as a wizards arcane implement, I'd probably do for less requirement. Warlock pact, probably more... maybe even requiring a quest for forging a new pact (getting some other power to by your debt from your current masters).

Actually, now that I think about it, that would make a compelling story shunt... Infernal Pact Warlock hunts for a relevantly benevolent Fey creature to bargain for his soul contract from the demon that currently owns it...




 

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