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Monk Fix (PEACH)

   
Who says I'm not crying foul? I'm not allowing Wizards to overwrite reality in my campaign. If someone wants to make any significant change in reality or somehow break the laws of physics, they have to cast a ritual and pay a terrible price. Regular spellcasters can, at most, use their Elements to deal HP damage, buff/debuff, heal or protect (VERY few save or die spells). And anything with a casting time longer than a round has been turned into a ritual, with the aforementioned Terrible Price(tm). Also, I'm handing out SR, Evasion, Stamina and Mettle (and their Improved versions) like candy.

So yeah, I'll cry foul. :P

Okay so the monk isn't balanced for your homebrew world, which does not use the core as it's ruleset.

We're attempting to make the monk balanced with the standard world, that does use the core.

EDIT: Didn't mean to make that sound snarky, and apologize if it came across that way. I mean that if you're de-buffing spellcasters in your world, then this fix is obviously not going to be appropriate, because it's geared towards a game that hasn't been toned down.

No problem, I completely understand your point, but you can't fix anything without depowering the casters. If your intention is to make the Monk on par with the Wizard, you need to give it the chance to cast every available spell on either the Sorcerer/Wizard or the Cleric list. That's the only way things are ever going to get fair. Even as written, the fix does very little narrow the abysmal gap.

Think that in order to give melee fighters a decent chance at being on par with the casters, they had to create an entirely new magic system, oriented for physical combat. Call it manouvers and initiators, but we all know it was a new magic system. You're not going to be able to fix the Monk without either doing that or depowering the casters (albeit not all of them, only those with the ability to make reality their slave).

Which is why the intent isn't to get them on par with casters, but with the hybrid classes, like psychic blades.

Why are people complaining about realism in DnD? Should the manyshot or greater manyshot feat be banned because what it proposes is impossible? No, it is FUN and does not unbalance the game. Or just ban anything that breaks the laws of physics or strains credulity? Like all of the class features that stop aging or even the hit-point system. If you want to make a character or class that allows uber-grappling then do it.

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Originally Posted by Amnistar View Post
Which is why the intent isn't to get them on par with casters, but with the hybrid classes, like psychic blades.
Yes, exactly. I've only said it 4 times now. Balance the fixed monk with a Totemist, Warblade, beguiler or Psychic warrior.

What's a psychic blade? if you refer to the soulknife, many consider it as bad as if not worse than the monk. "Hey look i'm a fighter withot bonus feats who shot his BAB in the face for a weapon that isn't as good as what WBL can buy."

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Originally Posted by Paul_V View Post
You must have not read the skill in detail. Even auto-success does not render you immune to poison because it doesn't affect the Initial save. It is explicitly worded so that you cannot become immune to poison by making a skill check.
You obviously didn't really read what I wrote. After all, there is an initial save against the first damage/effect of poison. Success negates this. You repeat the save 1 minute later. Again, success negates. I only said that immunity to poison could be partially replicated with Autohypnosis. Treating it as always succeeding on the Fort save gives you the same effect as blanket immunity while having it clearly nonmagical.

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A) That is not in an official book, so it's optional content. B) It's a Supernatural ability. C) It should clarify what kind of effect it is, so it forcibly needs an errata. If I were a DM and had to adjudicate that effect, I'd make it Mind-Affecting, as it explicitly states that they're "Bolts of pure madness".
Actually, no. It doesn't need an erratta. Daze is not only mind-effecting (see Celerity, a non-mind effecting spell that dazes the user), and there is nothing to suggest that everything needs additional effect tags. True, it's not an official book, but it is WotC published material, so it's fair game for consideration.

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The difference between your Attack Bonus and the foe's AC is much smaller than the difference between a foe's save and the DC. As a Monk, it'll be easier for creatures to make your saves than avoid your attacks.
Miss chances and melee range are enough to easily balance it out.


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Also, while you indeed gave me a list of possible strategies, you conveniently failed to mention that you're still not allowing Full Round actions, because of this ability and Following Step. And when you can do it twice per round per foe 3/day, you are effectively cancelling the Move+Standard action combo.
Wrong. They can disrupt a second action on a foe as an immediate action 3/day. This means they can disrupt 2 actions from one enemy and one from each other they threaten a round up to 3/day, assuming every attempt works.
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And even without that trick, it affects every single foe you threaten. Without a save. At will. And god forbid you get an item that gives your natural attacks reach, or something that increases your size.
Slow: 1 target per caster level (meaning up to 12 at the same level) and at range, no attack roll required, all targets must be withing 30ft of each other target. As I said before, this is not something that isn't done better, earlier. Seriously, if you're going to cry foul on game balance, at least do it properly.
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And it doesn't matter if you have to hit your foe, because almost all of your other class abilities depend on you hitting things. If you aren't putting all your resources there, you're playing this Monk wrong.
Yes it does matter, since any number of things can make it so you miss or lack the opportunity to even try it.

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No matter how hard you hit, you should never be able to diminish the movement speed of an Adamantine Golem without the use of magic (or most Constructs, which are made of exceedingly hard and non-crippable materials). Not to mention that Plants (and some Aberrations) usually don't rely on a single set of limbs, most Elementals don't even use limbs for moving (And some are made of fire, air or water, which you cannot cripple!), and most Undead could easily ignore the crippling since they don't really feel pain (also, some Undead are incorporeal...).
If you're facing Adamantine Golems pre-epic, I would find another DM. As for hitting it hard? I don't know, how about freaking breaking the leg? How else do you think those things get damaged and brought down? Stuff breaks on them. Most of the plants that don't rely on limbs also can't move. Elementals are indeed more difficult to justify and I was considering omitting them from the list. Undead may not feel pain, but if you break their leg, they can't move as well. Incorporeal undead are generally safe from this attack anyway as Unarmed Strikes cannot strike incorporeal opponents (magic weapons are magic, so that's all the justification needed there)


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I understand your reasoning, but you can't handwave logic by saying that A Hero Does It. A Human Monk should not be able to Grapple (nor Pin!) a Colossal creature without the aid of magic. It is not logical, coherent or realistic.
They still don't really have a chance at doing that until well into Epic where the world breaks if you look at it funny. I don't see the problem with them being able to wrestle a giant, though.

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I really don't see what's wrong with that, from a rational point of view.
Simple: those manuvers were meant to be used by the PC's as much as the enemies. Past level 10, the PC's never bother with them because they know they cannot succeed. In a world view, tripping something much larger than yourself should still be possible, it just takes a little more skill than dropping another humanoid. Fiction is full of times when a big creature falls to the ground to a single human (or similar).

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Bend, not rape and break them like ragdolls. Actually, you can do that in real life, but it requires years of training and a very specific body shape.
And this is different how? Here it requires years of training as well. Only difference is that instead of needing a specific body shape, they need a little experience with the big foes. Yeah, it's easy to say that no real human could trip a Titan (even though I could see it happening), but there are no Titans in real life for anyone to have any experience with. If you've spent part of your life fighting them and similar creatures however, you've probably learned a few tricks to equalize. That is what this ability is supposed to represent.

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Originally Posted by snakeman830 View Post
Actually, no. It doesn't need an erratta. Daze is not only mind-effecting (see Celerity, a non-mind effecting spell that dazes the user), and there is nothing to suggest that everything needs additional effect tags. True, it's not an official book, but it is WotC published material, so it's fair game for consideration.
Daze is a status effect. It does not have an effect connotation because it is always accompanied by an effect that enables it. You can't Daze someone without doing something first to them. In the specific case of Daze, logic and common sense state that you must affect the target's mind. That is, by definition, a mind-affecting effect. In the case of Celerity, it's a penalty to balance out the benefit, and it should state what kind of effect is Daze, since it's most obviously not Transmutation.

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Miss chances and melee range are enough to easily balance it out.
Like I said before, you entire class relies on being able to hit things in melee. If you aren't doing your best to reduce miss chances and making sure that you're able to stay at melee range without problems, you're not playing this Monk right. Making those abilities have a save balances the fact that you are likely to hit almost every time. Or give it daily uses, so that you can't do it all the time. Even Wizards can't cast Slow every day whenever they want. Not to mention Slow allows a save and SR.

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Wrong. They can disrupt a second action on a foe as an immediate action 3/day. This means they can disrupt 2 actions from one enemy and one from each other they threaten a round up to 3/day, assuming every attempt works. Slow: 1 target per caster level (meaning up to 12 at the same level) and at range, no attack roll required, all targets must be withing 30ft of each other target. As I said before, this is not something that isn't done better, earlier. Seriously, if you're going to cry foul on game balance, at least do it properly. Yes it does matter, since any number of things can make it so you miss or lack the opportunity to even try it.
Slow: Is not at will. Can be resisted, dispelled, countered, nullified. Allows a save. Your Monk, in optimal conditions (affected by Blood Wind and surrounded by enemies) can duplicate this effect for 20 enemies. Once again, at will, with no save, etc.

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If you're facing Adamantine Golems pre-epic, I would find another DM. As for hitting it hard? I don't know, how about freaking breaking the leg? How else do you think those things get damaged and brought down? Stuff breaks on them. Most of the plants that don't rely on limbs also can't move. Elementals are indeed more difficult to justify and I was considering omitting them from the list. Undead may not feel pain, but if you break their leg, they can't move as well. Incorporeal undead are generally safe from this attack anyway as Unarmed Strikes cannot strike incorporeal opponents (magic weapons are magic, so that's all the justification needed there)
If you can break someone's steel leg before your attacks count as Adamantine, it explicitly goes against the rules, as per object hardness. True, yet why would you be able to reduce the movement speed of a Violet Fungus, which has several different appendages for moving? Or an Assassin Vine, which has a speed of 5 ft.? (you would be rendering it immobile, as per round down rules) Also, since your unarmed attacks count as Magic weapons at some point, you would indeed be able to affect incorporeal beings.

Counting as magic for overcoming DR =/= actually being magic weapons. Out of all the monsters in the MM, only the Unicorn can actually strike incorporeal creatures with a natural attack (not counting other incorporeal creatures) because thier horn actually has an enhancement bonus.

Spell resistance is a joke and there is nothing that can be done to limit miss chances without resorting to magic (besides Blind-fight, but that only helps with concealment). Thus, it is less of a problem than you make it out to be. It really isn't uncommon for full BAB characters to have trouble hitting things, even before accounting for miss chances, and that's with a magic weapon (which monks have some incentive not to use now). Melee range is easily countered by virtually any fly speed.

Breaking anything is merely a matter of doing enough damage (force effects excluded). Hardness just raises the amount of damage that needs to be done. Even with this fact, note that no golem has hardness, so it's a moot point.

I have changed Crippling Blow to no longer effect elementals or supernatural modes of movement.

Hey, if you're bringing optimal conditions into it, you have to bring optimal conditions into both cases. This means that the opponents all failed their saves and none can dispel anything. Even under the best conditions, the Monk has a 5% chance to fail to disrupt while anyone who bothered using slow at that level has 0% chance to do the same. No, slow is not "at will", but the total number of times it needs to be cast is 1 or 2, depending on how lucky the enemy is with their save. And that lasts for at least 12 rounds with one use (assuming the same level). The Monk, under optimal conditions, has a 56.8% chance (over only 12 rounds) of disrupting the same number of actions on a single target. When you expand this to 20, it drops even more. Of course, this is a moot point since the battle is over by round 4 anyway.

What's causing the daze? How about the blow that knocked the guy senesless? I think that's a pretty good cause. I've been over this fix many times looking at other abilities that are available by the same level. Nothing breaks the game, but I think they may bring the Monk up to par with the more balanced classes (Psychic Warrior, Totemist, Warblade, Sorcerer, Beguiler, and similar ones). If it kicks the Fighter's ass, fine. That just means it is now useable in a long game.

So...Daze is mind-affecting because you say it is, and anything that causes daze must be mind-affecting even if it isn't. Do you have any rules anywhere that support your assertion? Oh, as another datapoint: Archivists.




 

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