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A question about the toughness feat

   
A question about the toughness feat

I am looking at the wording in the feat description. So a 7th level human Sorcerer
Takes this feat. What is the hit piont gain.
Now he also has fast learner feat as bonus
1st level human feat.
If you carry out all the way to 20th lvl.

You basically just get 1hp per level - so a L7 Sorcerer gets 7hp.

The funky wording is because you always get a minimum of 3hp (even if only L1) and it's to make it clear that it's retroactive - as you gain levels, you continue to gain more hp from the feat. I don't know why they didn't just say "You get 1hp per level (minimum 3); this increases as your levels increase", but there you go.

It's worth noting that the feat is not very good. A bit of extra hp is always nice to have, but it's not a lot of extra hp for the cost of a feat. There are better feats (there are also lots of other much worse feats, but still, there are better feats) - I'd only ever take Toughness if you really had no idea what else to take and wanted something that at least wouldn't make you any worse.

Fast Learner gives you +1hp and +1 skill point whenever you take a level in a favoured class - normally, you choose. So if you're a Sorcerer and Sorcerer is your favourite class then every time you take a Sorcerer level, you'd get +1hp and +1 skill point instead of only one of those.

Of course, if you're a Human Sorcerer you have the alternative option of choosing bonus spells, which is way better. Fast Learner doesn't stop you but there's zero point in taking it if you're always picking spells instead. A nice DM might let you swap only one of those benefits, so you can get e.g. +1hp and a bonus spell at every level - but even then, the feat is at best as good as Toughness, which is a bad feat. My advice is never to take either of them.

However, if for some reason you did, that's how they work.

Taking Toughness at 7th level will immediately increase your max HP by 7.
Additionally, Toughness will increase the HP gain from all subsequent levels by 1.
By 20th level, Toughness will have contributed 20 HP.

Thanks for the answer. I am just looking at
possible builds for a character or Nov for my home game.
I use the pathfinder builder app. The app also has the beginning of the new 2nd edition builder.
The app creator has put in a lot of time and I have way to many choices that sound good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
It's worth noting that the feat is not very good. A bit of extra hp is always nice to have, but it's not a lot of extra hp for the cost of a feat. There are better feats (there are also lots of other much worse feats, but still, there are better feats) - I'd only ever take Toughness if you really had no idea what else to take and wanted something that at least wouldn't make you any worse.
It's just as good as any other feat, though. There's also dodge that only adds 1 to AC, improved initiative that adds 4 to initiative, weapon focus adding 1 to-hit...toughness seems on-par with all those. Getting into 'really good' feats depends on the build, and certainly if going for a specific type of build...that's where feat selection is important. But toughness, like those others I've cited, is a quick and easy set-and-forget enhancement that anyone can take and gain something from. My elves with 10 constitution like it ok.

+4 to Initiative is amazing, and at least a tempting opportunity for almost every build I could dream up. It can easily be the difference between an enemy getting an entire extra turn or not, and thereby save someone in your party far more than 1HP/HD.

Dodge's +1 AC, on the other hand, is rarely worthwhile unless you're using it as a prerequisite for something better. Some builds can easily get AC (or, more likely, other defenses) high enough that most enemies aren't going to be hitting reliably anyway, at which +1 AC is largely wasted, while other builds' AC is low enough that +1 AC isn't enough to have a meaningful impact.

+1HP/HD is, for most builds, somewhere between those two. It's not going to be on a lot of 'must-have' lists anytime soon, but it does provide a very clear benefit that few builds would scoff at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarist View Post
It's just as good as any other feat, though. There's also dodge that only adds 1 to AC, improved initiative that adds 4 to initiative, weapon focus adding 1 to-hit...toughness seems on-par with all those.
Yes, and those (except Imp Init) are all really quite bad. Unfortunately, Pathfinder printed a lot of bad feats and not very many good ones - they even nerfed a lot of decent feats (like Imp Trip) because apparently they thought that Fighters were too powerful or something.

However, consider feats like Improved Trip (still), Power Attack, Step Up, Disruptive, etc - obviously these are dependent upon the character, but for the right character they're way better than Toughness or Weapon Focus. Indeed, things like Toughness and Dodge are probably bad in part because they're so simple and applicable to everyone - they're like the "I really have no idea what else to take, I know this will at least benefit me slightly" options.

For a Sorcerer, even Spell Focus is better than Toughness and even that is slightly underwhelming. Noble Scion can be pretty awesome. Expanded Arcana is also not great but it's still like 2.5x better than Toughness (especially if you can retrain it later). At L7, Improved Familiar might let you get e.g. an Imp, who has a lot of use. If you don't have a familiar, Eldritch Heritage is not an awful option. Craft Wondrous Item (better for a Wizard by far, but still) lets you save so much cash that you can afford way more than a +1 to AC via items. Augment Summoner is good for a summoner. Additional Traits is on the face of it a bit like Toughness (a small bonus, nothing special) but if you use it to pick up e.g. Magical Lineage or Irrepressible (assuming you don't already have them) then it can be pretty darn good. Some metamagic feats are also worth considering, but not at the very low levels.

Toughness is just a sign of desperation (admittedly, something often felt when looking through PF feats). Thankfully PF made Toughness and Dodge only bad, rather than "essentially no point in taking" levels of bad, but they're still not good.

The hit point gain to my understanding as well is 7hp for a lvl7 character.

I'm new to Pathfinder and to keep it simple I stuck with just the players guide (or however it's called). Creating a basic fighter to feel out the possibilities and unsure what I'd want to try or even what is possible I gladly picked up the toughness feat. Sure, there might be feats for skills, weapons or other stuff, but since I had no clue what was good/bad, what would be important or not, I at least knew enough that more hitpoints meant the character could stay longer in the things that I knew would always be a thing, combat. And that way I'd have more chance to figure out what I wanted.

Toughness seems like a good thing to fall back onto. If you don't know the system and haven't a specific built that you want to create.








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