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3.5 Another skill argument

   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicerious View Post
Charisma is a mental stat, though. It's strength of personality, confidence, and presence.

A character with low Charisma isn't "ugly," s/he is timid, unkempt, abrasive, and/or un-assertive.

High-Charisma characters tend to be more attractive because they tend to take better care of themselves - dressing neatly, better hygiene, etc. Low-Charisma characters tend to be unattractive because they tend not to do those things.
Exactly. Bill Romanowski a former linebacker in the NFL used to eat horrible smelling food before games so his breath was awful and not wear deodorant to smell bad. He smelled and acted as foul as possible to intimidate his opponent for a full 60 minutes. That is the model I'm talking about with my fighter, being as gross and nasty as possible to Intimidate his opponents. Hygiene and looks would play a part

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLastForgot View Post
Well in 3.5 and Pathfinder you resist intimidation by sheer virtue of how high your Hit Die are, with a bonus based on your Wisdom modifier. That's a pretty good abstraction since it kinda gives you a bonus to defend based on how formidable you are, however that might be defined.

There's also a plethora of material already in 3.5 and Pathfinder that shows they're okay with the concept, like Might Makes Right (Strength instead of Charisma for Leadership score) and the Half Orc Druid racial sub (Strength instead of Charisma for Wild Empathy). And the aforementioned Intimidating Prowess in Pathfinder.
The hit die is the counterpoint to the skill ranks which is also capped by hit dice. Wisdom is the defense against charisma as the basis, and there are feats and features that allow people to learn other ways to do things. Why give strength for free and not the rest? Why not eliminate all the feats and abilities that allow a person to deviate from the standard system and just let people pick what they want? It's odd to favor this one instance because it's reasonable but keep the rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRoot View Post
Exactly. Bill Romanowski a former linebacker in the NFL used to eat. Asthma smelling food before games so his breath was awful and not wear deodorant to smell bad. He smelled and acted as foul as possible to intimidate his opponent for a full 60 minutes. That is the model I'm talking about with my fighter, being as gross and nasty as possible to Intimidate his opponents. Hygiene and looks would play a part
What you're describing is an individual manufacturing a circumstance bonus, not low Charisma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penchant View Post
The hit die is the counterpoint to the skill ranks which is also capped by hit dice. Wisdom is the defense against charisma as the basis, and there are feats and features that allow people to learn other ways to do things. Why give strength for free and not the rest? Why not eliminate all the feats and abilities that allow a person to deviate from the standard system and just let people pick what they want? It's odd to favor this one instance because it's reasonable but keep the rest.
Because it's a house rule, because melee should have nice things, and because we found the game to be more fun with its inclusion. Many games have house rules, many games try to improve the disposition of mundane classes.

Or, in your words, I "favor this one instance because it's reasonable."

Note, I'm not advocating that everyone play with this house-rule, and since the advent of Pathfinder my home group doesn't really use it any more either. Merely sharing a house rule that I've used in the past and what its impact was on the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicerious View Post
What you're describing is an individual manufacturing a circumstance bonus, not low Charisma.
Fair point. I just contend that in this instance the low Charisma score should not be a negative for Intimidate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penchant View Post
The hit die is the counterpoint to the skill ranks which is also capped by hit dice. Wisdom is the defense against charisma as the basis, and there are feats and features that allow people to learn other ways to do things. Why give strength for free and not the rest? Why not eliminate all the feats and abilities that allow a person to deviate from the standard system and just let people pick what they want? It's odd to favor this one instance because it's reasonable but keep the rest.
No need to get crazy with it. There are many things in 3.5 that I think don't make sense, like one class having listen as a class skill and not another. If a being has ears he should be able to listen, period. We also have many house rules at my table as well and as long as they are discussed, agreed upon and don't tilt the balance of power too much then there is nothing wrong with it.
I say that with full understanding that some folks get their minds completely blown by any deviation from black and white rules, lol.

No, a lot of our house rules are a bit arbitrary; only created when we personally run afoul of an irksome turn of the rules.

I'm saying that I don't agree that using strength for intimidate is a logical rule (within the context of debate, as all house rules are reasonable in the context of a DMs game). A high strength is one tool that a person can be intimidated with, but it, in and of itself, does not make a person better at intimidation. No matter how many ripply muscles you have, they don't make a difference unless you know how to manipulate a subject into fear of them. Some characters have a high strength, but aren't very big, while others have swollen body builder muscles without having a lot of strength. Height can also be intimidating, but a person 6'6" doesn't get a bigger bonus than someone 5'5" when intimidating someone. It's all about how you use your assets to instill fear in someone which is a combination of learned skill (ranks and/or feats) and natural ability to influence others socially (charisma).

Edit: in other words, strength might add an equipment bonus as the tool used with a skill, but not as the ability associated with the skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penchant View Post
No, a lot of our house rules are a bit arbitrary; only created when we personally run afoul of an irksome turn of the rules.

I'm saying that I don't agree that using strength for intimidate is a logical rule (within the context of debate, as all house rules are reasonable in the context of a DMs game). A high strength is one tool that a person can be intimidated with, but it, in and of itself, does not make a person better at intimidation. No matter how many ripply muscles you have, they don't make a difference unless you know how to manipulate a subject into fear of them. Some characters have a high strength, but aren't very big, while others have swollen body builder muscles without having a lot of strength. Height can also be intimidating, but a person 6'6" doesn't get a bigger bonus than someone 5'5" when intimidating someone. It's all about how you use your assets to instill fear in someone which is a combination of learned skill (ranks and/or feats) and natural ability to influence others socially (charisma).

Edit: in other words, strength might add an equipment bonus as the tool used with a skill, but not as the ability associated with the skill.
Very reasonable and well thought out explanation Penchant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicerious View Post
What you're describing is an individual manufacturing a circumstance bonus, not low Charisma.
Well, and/or ranks in the skills, and/or Skill Focus. And probably a high Charisma; if the guy knows exactly which buttons to press to rile people up and how to act and use his body language to extra effect, then that's a high Charisma. If he just turned up ugly, dishevelled and smelling but didn't do that, I don't think he'd be intimidating at all. Repulsive, maybe, but not scary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
Well, and/or ranks in the skills, and/or Skill Focus. And probably a high Charisma; if the guy knows exactly which buttons to press to rile people up and how to act and use his body language to extra effect, then that's a high Charisma. If he just turned up ugly, dishevelled and smelling but didn't do that, I don't think he'd be intimidating at all. Repulsive, maybe, but not scary.
Lol, fair point as well.




 

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