Is the U.S. justice system racist? - Page 3 - Myth-Weavers


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Is the U.S. justice system racist?

 
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Originally Posted by DragonBarbarian View Post
I don't think that it's always a choice, a lot of times people simply can't solve the problems.
No one's asking people to solve the problems themselves. No one ever asked for all white people to join the Freedom Riders. There's still a lot you can do to show support and help. Write letters. Call your representatives. Donate to the NAACP or something.

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Furthermore this wasn't designed to enforce the status quo, people have the potential to get better within the system and they have. If it was designed to put black people down, then why have they been allowed to succeed? The problem isn't with the system deliberately putting anyone down, it's with not doing enough to help.
"The system"? What is this, the Matrix? The United States is a republic with a federal government and 50 state governments. You think they're all the same?

Furthermore, I'd like to see you define "success" in this case. India has had a woman president, and it has had an Untouchable president. Surely that is great progress – but would you say that India treats women fairly? Treats Untouchables as equals?

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Again it's more a matter of incompetence than, deliberate choice. It also assumes that people were trying to make the choice to hurt others with their decisions, when sometimes they're just bad at their job.

Trying to assign blame to people who did nothing is a might silly.
I'm not a Christian, but America is. So I think it reasonable to hold America to its own standards.

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Originally Posted by Matthew 25:31–46
The Sheep and the Goats

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

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Originally Posted by Solo View Post
No one's asking people to solve the problems themselves. No one ever asked for all white people to join the Freedom Riders. There's still a lot you can do to show support and help. Write letters. Call your representatives. Donate to the NAACP or something.
That's not really relevant to my point but uh, okay.



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"The system"? What is this, the Matrix? The United States is a republic with a federal government and 50 state governments. You think they're all the same?
The government system. Surely you've *heard* this word used before, yes?

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Furthermore, I'd like to see you define "success" in this case. India has had a woman president, and it has had an Untouchable president. Surely that is great progress – but would you say that India treats women fairly? Treats Untouchables as equals?
My point wasn't just that they elected such a man to presidency, but all the other great things black people are allowed to do. But being allowed to do something doesn't mean someone will be able to achieve that thing. Black people have all the same rights as white people, but they don't all live in the same circumstances. This was just one such example rather than a defining trait I was mentioning.

The caste system in india is actually enforced so, that's a lot different than the U.S. who, has no such system of actual slavery.


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I'm not a Christian, but America is. So I think it reasonable to hold America to its own standards.
Actually, America is a secular ran country. But even Christians understand that helping others is a process.

You yourself advocate a strategy of "benign neglect" in the middle east with non-interventionism, so are you some sort of evil monster who wants the middle east to be in a horrible state of condition? The problem is that people don't know what's best to help others. We need to work out what that is, which in this case is helping the poor. Rich black people have it pretty good, it's the poor black people that need to be helped.

BLM for instance wants the government to be less involved, and they're a black civil rights group. But obviously that isn't what should happen, because it's not the government that's what's keeping black people down, for the most part.

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Originally Posted by DragonBarbarian View Post
That's not really relevant to my point but uh, okay.
Would that be because you shift goalposts with such vigor that you yourself cannot recognize the conversation?

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The government system. Surely you've *heard* this word used before, yes?
I've heard the word. I'm unsure as to your definition. Words may have multiple definitions. For example, the word "fascist" has different definitions depending on if you are talking to a historian, political scientist, or sociologist. In what sense do you use the term "system"?

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My point wasn't just that they elected such a man to presidency, but all the other great things black people are allowed to do. But being allowed to do something doesn't mean someone will be able to achieve that thing. Black people have all the same rights as white people, but they don't all live in the same circumstances. This was just one such example rather than a defining trait I was mentioning.
What would these great things be, exactly? I don't expect a list, but could you, perhaps, provide a general overview?

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The caste system in india is actually enforced so, that's a lot different than the U.S. who, has no such system of actual slavery.
Nonsense. Point to me any part of the Indian legal system, any law or code, that enforces the caste system.

You cannot, because the caste system does not exist. It was legally abolished. There is no caste system. Hence, there is no problem.

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Actually, America is a secular ran country. But even Christians understand that helping others is a process.
The government is secular. The population is Christian.

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You yourself advocate a strategy of "benign neglect" in the middle east with non-interventionism, so are you some sort of evil monster who wants the middle east to be in a horrible state of condition? The problem is that people don't know what's best to help others. We need to work out what that is, which in this case is helping the poor. Rich black people have it pretty good, it's the poor black people that need to be helped.
Come now. Surely you can make your argument without resorting to lies? Retract the statement and issue me an apology posthaste, good sir.

I have never advocated for neglecting the ME, but that we should stop intervening with military action. We should support groups with goals similar to our own. I have, for example, advocated supporting the Kurds with weapons, training, supplies, etc. Flinch can testify to this.

Withdraw the accusation, Dragon Barbarian.

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BLM for instance wants the government to be less involved, and they're a black civil rights group. But obviously that isn't what should happen, because it's not the government that's what's keeping black people down, for the most part.
I was under the impression that they wanted more accountability for police departments. They certainly didn't protest the federal government stepping in to investigate shootings.

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Originally Posted by Solo View Post
Would that be because you shift goalposts with such vigor that you yourself cannot recognize the conversation?

I've heard the word. I'm unsure as to your definition. Words may have multiple definitions. For example, the word "fascist" has different definitions depending on if you are talking to a historian, political scientist, or sociologist. In what sense do you use the term "system"?
Do you need me to actually explain what a government system is... or liek...

"A government is the system by which a state or community is controlled."- Wikipedia

So, all governments are a system of governing. So, a government system, is the system or, the method of which that governments, governs things. This is a pretty simple concept that doesn't really need explaining.

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What would these great things be, exactly? I don't expect a list, but could you, perhaps, provide a general overview?
All of the same things as white people, is my point.

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Nonsense. Point to me any part of the Indian legal system, any law or code, that enforces the caste system.

You cannot, because the caste system does not exist. It was legally abolished. There is no caste system. Hence, there is no problem.
Actually my point this whole time is that the absence of legal oppression doesn't fix the problem. Hence the U.S. justice system, or even society doesn't need to be racist for problems to persist in the black community.

Although, slavery still exists in India.


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The government is secular. The population is Christian.
Well, then we shouldn't have impacts on the government despite this.

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Come now. Surely you can make your argument without resorting to lies? Retract the statement and issue me an apology posthaste, good sir.

I have never advocated for neglecting the ME, but that we should stop intervening with military action. We should support groups with goals similar to our own. I have, for example, advocated supporting the Kurds with weapons, training, supplies, etc. Flinch can testify to this.

Withdraw the accusation, Dragon Barbarian.
I think you're mischaracterizing my point, which is that you don't want U.S. military intervention. I was speaking in general terms rather than totality. Sometimes people think that not acting can be the solution, and sometimes they are right. Other times however, they are wrong. Also not all neglect is deliberate.

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I was under the impression that they wanted more accountability for police departments. They certainly didn't protest the federal government stepping in to investigate shootings.
Interestingly enough, a core tenet of BLM's activities has been less government involvement, and not just police accountability. BLM has a whole bunch of belief systems, such as releasing all 2.8 million black people being in prison (despite there only being 800,000), and letting black communities decide things for themselves. They also want independent investigations, not done by the government! Reparations for all black people for slavery and free higher education for black people, but only black people. BLM believes some pretty kooky stuff.

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Originally Posted by DragonBarbarian View Post
Do you need me to actually explain what a government system is... or liek...

"A government is the system by which a state or community is controlled."- Wikipedia

So, all governments are a system of governing. So, a government system, is the system or, the method of which that governments, governs things. This is a pretty simple concept that doesn't really need explaining.
So, by "system" here, you mean the federal government (all three branches), all 50 state governments, and the innumerable local governments, along with regulatory agencies, the military, etc?

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All of the same things as white people, is my point.
I think you're confusing the ability for individuals to achieve success for a lack of obstacles for the majority. For example, in the pre-bellum United States, there were both black slaves and freemen, some of whom even owned slaves, but you would not say that it was equal and not racist due to the ability of blacks to achieve the same free status as white citizens. Even in the South.

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Actually my point this whole time is that the absence of legal oppression doesn't fix the problem. Hence the U.S. justice system, or even society doesn't need to be racist for problems to persist in the black community.

Although, slavery still exists in India.
You seem to have missed my fascists point that even absent legal oppression, social behavior can result in the same status quo. Slavery and the caste system are de-jure illegal, but de-facto legal.

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Well, then we shouldn't have impacts on the government despite this.
The government is made of people. These people have beliefs. Isn't that why which president gets to appoint supreme court justices, department heads, etc, was such an important point this election?


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I think you're mischaracterizing my point, which is that you don't want U.S. military intervention. I was speaking in general terms rather than totality. Sometimes people think that not acting can be the solution, and sometimes they are right. Other times however, they are wrong. Also not all neglect is deliberate.
I accept your apology.

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Originally Posted by Solo View Post
So, by "system" here, you mean the federal government (all three branches), all 50 state governments, and the innumerable local governments, along with regulatory agencies, the military, etc?
I mean the entire system of government, since it's a set of systems and not a single monolithic structure. Hence the use of my word, system. xP



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I think you're confusing the ability for individuals to achieve success for a lack of obstacles for the majority. For example, in the pre-bellum United States, there were both black slaves and freemen, some of whom even owned slaves, but you would not say that it was equal and not racist due to the ability of blacks to achieve the same free status as white citizens. Even in the South.

You seem to have missed my fascists point that even absent legal oppression, social behavior can result in the same status quo. Slavery and the caste system are de-jure illegal, but de-facto legal.

The government is made of people. These people have beliefs. Isn't that why which president gets to appoint supreme court justices, department heads, etc, was such an important point this election?
Uh, no I didn't miss the point. It is my point, the point of this whole thread.

That the U.S. justice system isn't racist, that the rule of law isn't racist, but rather that there are problems that can continue to persist in society irregardless of what the government does. You're basically in agreement with me here despite not realizing it.

My other secondary point is that society also isn't racist, but that problems still persist without that racism. In other words problems that exist aren't necessarily due to the justice system, I.E. the legal system, or even society's current actions. The reason I do describe is the cyclical nature of poverty. Although slavery is inherently immoral in and of itself and because whites couldn't be slaves it was in fact, racist.




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I accept your apology.
Well, I wasn't apologizing because you misunderstand what I was saying, but I do apologize that you were apparently offended by it if it I didn't mean it, since my point is, not to offend you specifically.

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Originally Posted by DragonBarbarian View Post
Uh, no I didn't miss the point. It is my point, the point of this whole thread.

That the U.S. justice system isn't racist, that the rule of law isn't racist, but rather that there are problems that can continue to persist in society irregardless of what the government does. You're basically in agreement with me here despite not realizing it.

My other secondary point is that society also isn't racist, but that problems still persist without that racism. In other words problems that exist aren't necessarily due to the justice system, I.E. the legal system, or even society's current actions. The reason I do describe is the cyclical nature of poverty. Although slavery is inherently immoral in and of itself and because whites couldn't be slaves it was in fact, racist.
Now I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on one of my points, which must have surely slipped past you in the furor.

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I think you're confusing the ability for individuals to achieve success for a lack of obstacles for the majority. For example, in the pre-bellum United States, there were both black slaves and freemen, some of whom even owned slaves, but you would not say that it was equal and not racist due to the ability of blacks to achieve the same free status as white citizens. Even in the South.
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Well, I wasn't apologizing because you misunderstand what I was saying, but I do apologize that you were apparently offended by it if it I didn't mean it, since my point is, not to offend you specifically.
What I find more offensive is your abuse of the English language. What have you got against proper punctuation?

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Originally Posted by Solo View Post
Now I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on one of my points, which must have surely slipped past you in the furor.

I think you're confusing the ability for individuals to achieve success for a lack of obstacles for the majority. For example, in the pre-bellum United States, there were both black slaves and freemen, some of whom even owned slaves, but you would not say that it was equal and not racist due to the ability of blacks to achieve the same free status as white citizens. Even in the South.
There are no legal situations that specifically are putting down black people, such as allowing them to be slaves in the first place. The fact they can be free is not going to exempt the fact that many of them are forced in to slavery.

Black people are both allowed to succeed and are not being put down in the U.S. in some other way. I think I've already said that.





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What I find more offensive is your abuse of the English language. What have you got against proper punctuation?
I have a uh, poetic license, that allows me to uh, punctuate, as I please.

My favorite tricolon is the tripple semi-colon, as well; so, for instance, if I were to make an unjointed point juxtaposed to my original point, I could just, use a semi-colon to put it there; you can see how easy and simple that is. My english teacher's in the 11th grade gave me my poetic license, I'll have you know. And yes, I had two! Which was weird, to say the least.

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Originally Posted by DragonBarbarian View Post
There are no legal situations that specifically are putting down black people, such as allowing them to be slaves in the first place. The fact they can be free is not going to exempt the fact that many of them are forced in to slavery.

Black people are both allowed to succeed and are not being put down in the U.S. in some other way. I think I've already said that.
There are several problems with this.

First, slaves weren't selected solely because they were black; it's just that the place where slaves came from happened to be a foreign land with people of different pigmentation. The Africans sold their own prisoners of wars, criminals, etc, to slave traders. There was nothing racist about it, right?

Second, I believe that you have called the system of sharecropping racist. This is odd, because back in those days, black sharecroppers were legally treated the same as whites. In fact, most sharecroppers were poor whites. So what was your basis for decrying that as racist? You have, so I remember, claimed that sharecropping laws were put into place with racist intent, but you have never offered a shred of evidence as to that, as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by Solo View Post
There are several problems with this.

First, slaves weren't selected solely because they were black; it's just that the place where slaves came from happened to be a foreign land with people of different pigmentation. The Africans sold their own prisoners of wars, criminals, etc, to slave traders. There was nothing racist about it, right?

Second, I believe that you have called the system of sharecropping racist. This is odd, because back in those days, black sharecroppers were legally treated the same as whites. In fact, most sharecroppers were poor whites. So what was your basis for decrying that as racist? You have, so I remember, claimed that sharecropping laws were put into place with racist intent, but you have never offered a shred of evidence as to that, as far as I know.
Actually what I claimed was that sharecropping wasn't inherently racist but was used by racists to further their own agendas. A lot of sharecroppers had racist intent given that they were previous slave owners, and those who believed in slavery were virtually all racists, but sharecropping was not designed inherently to be racist. In fact at the time sharecropping was put in to place by the union-minded President Andrew Johnson, as a way to help black people, even though serious exploitation occurred during sharecropping time perhaps inadvertently.

And slaves were selected solely because they were black given that there were no white slaves allowed in U.S. law. That's deliberately discriminatory. The Africans who enslaved their own people were largely not doing it out of racism, but the white people who did bring the African slaves over did do so because they were racist. They didn't exactly enslave other whites even though they could have.







 

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