The United Nations says Israel is imposing an "apartheid regime" on Palestianians - Page 7 - Myth-Weavers


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The United Nations says Israel is imposing an "apartheid regime" on Palestianians

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOasysMaster View Post
When you've accounted for it...
...will you be able to make the case that Israel is imposing an apartheid regime on Palestinians or that Jews are not indigenous to the Levant? If not, I'm not sure of the relevance to the topic at hand or, in particular, to me...
...unless this thread is going to become 'Israel/Palestine' or 'Zionism'.
That 'must' is pretty strange.
A country founded on a passionate religious belief of entitlement isn't going to be a liberal, secular, democratic republic any time soon. Which I think we can agree Israel isn't.


Quote:
Is it not possible that I have reached the same conclusion as the Zionists without invoking magic and thus, avoid being not rational?
Have you reached the same conclusions?

Would you run Israel as it was run in the past, or is being run today?

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I'm still unsure of what it matters.
Even if Zionists wrote down, 'We get the land 'cause the flying spaghetti monster said so', would not invalidate anything I've said.
I could agree with you, if you like, and trusting that you have honestly and succintly reproduced Zionist ideology that led to the founding, state that Zionism and the founding claim is silly and facetious. What now?
Would you like to talk about the founding of Israel instead?
You are making a logical case for returning Israel to the descendants of those who originally lived there. (Assuming that, in fact, the Jews are the ones who originally lived there.)

I don't think this sort of policy works out in the real world.

You mentioned the Cherokee a while back. What do you suppose would happen if we returned ancestral Cherokee lands to them, for them to preside over again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo View Post
A country founded on a passionate religious belief of entitlement isn't going to be a liberal, secular, democratic republic any time soon. Which I think we can agree Israel isn't.
Again, to be charitable, I'll simply agree.
I know Israelis and Jews who have stated that 'Israel is not a Western country'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo View Post
Have you reached the same conclusions?
Thank you for asking me that.
I'm going to rescind my earlier statement and answer this question, "I cannot be too sure until I consult the Zionist literature."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo View Post
Would you run Israel as it was run in the past, or is being run today?
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo View Post
You are making a logical case for returning Israel to the descendants of those who originally lived there. (Assuming that, in fact, the Jews are the ones who originally lived there.)
You do realize that not all the Jews left, right?
Even without the indigenous angle, it was well within the rights of Jews living under Ottoman rule to exercise their rights to self-determination and decide they would not be ruled by Arabs and determine their own destinies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo View Post
I don't think this sort of policy works out in the real world.
Again, to be charitable, I'll simply agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo View Post
You mentioned the Cherokee a while back. What do you suppose would happen if we returned ancestral Cherokee lands to them, for them to preside over again?
I imagine it would be chaos. However, I imagine that since quite a few of the people being displaced are white, there'd be considerable celebration and support for the resurgent Cherokee nation.
I don't know if North Carolinan people would spend the next few decades with a concerted determination to wipe out the Cherokee, training their children in genocide, etc.. I don't know if would wound the egos of European descendants as much as ascendant and independent Jews might wound Arabs.
If I can ask a question in return, what do you suppose will happen if we return Armenia, Anatolia and Assryia to their people and carve out independent states for Egyptian Copts and Persian Zoroastrians and finally kick Turkey out of Cyprus? Do you think we'll have conversations about where Armenians came from and whether or not Turkey was always Turkish?

I think, I mention the Cherokee because I suspect (and only a survey will tell) that many people who are gravely offended by Jews regaining their independence in their ancestral homelands at the expense of Arabs would celebrate the same for the Cherokee and other indigenous people of the Americas.
Which is very suspicious to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo View Post
Ignoring all that for a moment, aren't the same objections in play, at least in principal?
Yes, they are. That's why they're comparable situations.

My objection to Zionism is like my objection to returning land to the Cherokee, and reparations to slaves.

The time has passed. The victims are dead. Their descendants are worse off for historical injustice, but the best approach is to create a better society that removes the disadvantages they now face. Remedying historical injustice always raises a thorny question: How far back do you go?

Because I guarantee you, the Cherokee weren't the original possessors of their land either.

You appear to be a consistent person who has made sure they don't possess any internal contradictions and I congratulate you on succeeding at that sort of careful, self-reflection. I have no objections worth making to what you've said, I think anything I might say in an objecting reply would be pedantic.







 

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