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Flavour vs Crunch: Multiclassing and Dipping

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo View Post
You know, those are prestige classes that are entered by the Big 5.
Yes, I do know. Please reread the full discussion in which I was replying to. The guy was saying that a Druid or Wizard 20 was far and away the most powerful thing in the game. Even moreso than someone who's multiclassing, which includes things like the Druid/Planar Shepherd or Wizard/Incanatrix. But, alas, in his opinion, that actually makes them weak because nothing compares to the awesome might of a single-class Druid or Wizard.

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It makes no RP sense (so you follow that reptilian god of evil just to get the Magic and Darkness domains?)
Sidenote: That's a horrible choice in domains.

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Before we even moved to this thread I myself said I found those 1-level Cleric dips a tad cheesy, and I don't think anyone has disputed it. Without getting into the whole RP-vs-mechanics thing (turns out, mechanics are a big part of D&D), we can all I think agree that perhaps this is an issue some of the time. However, it often makes a lot of sense.
Elminster has a level of Cleric. True story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Dog View Post
Yes, I do know. Please reread the full discussion in which I was replying to. The guy was saying that a Druid or Wizard 20 was far and away the most powerful thing in the game. Even moreso than someone who's multiclassing, which includes things like the Druid/Planar Shepherd or Wizard/Incanatrix. But, alas, in his opinion, that actually makes them weak because nothing compares to the awesome might of a single-class Druid or Wizard.
Multiclassing is distinct from prestige classing, you know. Multiclassing involves having multiple base classes, whereas prestige classing involves... prestige... classes.

And a multiclassed martial character does indeed pale to a single classed Druid most of the time, if the players are equally competent.

Damn it's like you guys are all just typing at each other concurrently!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo View Post
Sidenote: That's a horrible choice in domains.
Being able to use pretty much any magic scroll/wand (Cleric + arcane) and get free Blind-Fight is pretty neat, though I was talking from more of a Core (/SRD) standpoint where there isn't much else.

Also, too much mudslinging and getting bogged down in the details, guys.

I always thought munchkining in general was kinda lame, not just the PrC dipping, but min-maxing too. But that mostly comes down to preference of play: Some people like looking at rules and seeing how they can build "the best" character going, others like to look at the rules and say "how can I fit my idea into these". There's really no right or wrong, as long as everyone in the group is on the same page. If half want to build "the best" and the other half don't, there you'll have issues.

Well, I think there is the wider question of fluff vs crunch. However, I don't feel multiclassing specifically should be anything more than one element of that. If the fluff works, the fluff works regardless of the crunch. If the fluff is hurt for the crunch, and you're supposed to have good fluff, maybe there's a problem. Otherwise I think you're causing needless problems.

Man, did I write a whole paragraph about "fluff" and "crunch"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
  1. Sometimes, yeah, it gives an "unfair" power boost. However, it's in many ways far easier to build a more powerful character going pure. Caster in particular lose out from dipping because of their exponential power increase.
More importantly, I think, is the fact that whether or not something is "fair" is really determined by the overall power level and tone of the game. If everybody is playing tier 3-4 characters, dipping Barbarian for Pounce isn't unfair in any imaginable way. On the other hand, if it's a game where everybody is playing NPC classes, then yeah, it probably should be frowned upon.

Actually, I can kind of see this one. The point is that it's "unfair" because non-Barbarians were never meant to get that ability, which was written for Barbarians. You could take a class which is better than Barbarian, and still get the option of Pounce.

However, the thing is that this doesn't seem to be the issue people are having with multiclassing (and in fact, as I said, it can't be purely a power thing, because there are plenty of pure options which do just as well).

What I don't get is why dipping a martial adept for a certain manoeuvre is apparently so much worse than, say, taking Arcane Thesis for a certain spell.

Quick question for the debaters: Where do multiclassing exp penalties appear in this discourse? Are they generally houseruled away, or do dippers suffer for their single cleric level?

I ask because, as far as I can tell, dips mechanically take care of themselves in that the player levels more slowly, reflecting their methodical education.
An example: Fistbeard spent some time looking for the ancient treant monks, while Thag the barbarian spent that time killing orcs with his axe, ergo Fistbeard has a more complicated build, and Thag is a higher level character. Everyone wins?

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Actually, I can kind of see this one. The point is that it's "unfair" because non-Barbarians were never meant to get that ability, which was written for Barbarians. You could take a class which is better than Barbarian, and still get the option of Pounce.
Since barbarians are merely those people from a different culture than one's own, cannot anyone be a barbarian?

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An example: Fistbeard spent some time looking for the ancient treant monks, while Thag the barbarian spent that time killing orcs with his axe, ergo Fistbeard has a more complicated build, and Thag is a higher level character. Everyone wins?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Fistbeard incurs multiclassing XP with Ranger3/Monk2. Been a while since I read that a particular rule, though.

I know, I know, it was just an example.







 

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