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Pros and Cons of Fate

   
Okay, I just want to thank everyone who's come to answer my Fate inquiries. I think we've got some great discussions here, but the yays have it. I'm going to spin up a Fate game and see what we get.

"Combat" is an interesting and in my way entirely wrong way of viewing things. Fate doesn't do "combat". It does "conflict". But conflict can take many shapes and forms. Physical fights are just one of them.

It might seem like a petty semantic issue, but I find that when you stop thinking about games in terms of "encounters" and "combat", it opens up a far broader, more open way of progressing a narrative. In many games, D&D in particular, combat is something that sort of exists within its own microcosm each time it happens. The larger context and situation gets ignored and the game becomes about taking actions in a turn. That doesn't happen in anything except combat, and the system is built to do that. Sure, not all "combat encounters" are about killing the other side, but all of them are about combat - it's in the name.

Thinking of combat in terms of conflict and encounters as scenes sort of implicitly, at least for me, opens them up as a sequence of actions towards a goal, not just "a sequence of actions within the system's mechanics".


One of the larger things Fate doesn't do is mechanically complex combat. While you can build rather complex characters with dynamic abilities and the like, all conflict works far better when the focus of the scene is on the overall narrative instead of the nitty gritty details. The Why and How are far more important than the What, which is a thing that is occasionally difficult to do. Fate is definitely not the game for "random encounters" or filler content - which is something D&D and its like do quite a fair bit. Every scene should have a purpose in it, and that purpose should be focused on instead of just adding in a bunch of mechanics to make it a "combat encounter" for the sake of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cailano View Post
So your other Fate games just had no combat at all?

This kind of stuff worries me. I worry about venturing into the realm of narrative games and finding that there is basically no game. That's not a knock on the people who do that sort of thing but I know it's not what I want, personally. I want an RPG, and I want one with some action.
As I said before, this is all purely a matter of taste. Some people want violence to be entertained and some folks are only interested in violent challenges. I like violence in my TV shows and movies, but I'm not all that interested in role-playing fighting games. They bore me to tears.

That's why I like Fate. It handles all conflicts the same, which opens up a whole host of options for contests/challenges/conflicts that aren't physically violent. If you are "worried" by a game that handles non-violent conflicts with the same level of "crunch" as violent ones (unlike, say, D&D that has two paragraphs for Diplomacy and 50+ pages for fighting), then Fate is definitely not for you. I think Fate handles violent conflict pretty well though, certainly well enough for my tastes.

In the two Fate games I'm in right now . . . 1) We are playing children/young adults in the Rose Lord's coastal palace. Think playing kids of all the movers and shakers in Game of Thrones minus the dragons and you've about got it. We don't have a physical stress track and combat because that isn't what the story is about. If you need someone killed, you have to convince someone to do it for you, because you can't be caught murdering, you're a princess for God's sake and because you'd just get killed. You're just a kid. So we have lots of intrigue, tons of social combat, and Lots of murdery death as the consequences of our actions.

And . . . 2) We are a team of paranormal investigators who put ghosts and spirits to rest by "incarnating" the ghosts in our own bodies and living out their unfinished business in their memories, in the spirit world, and in the real world (long story). No sword fights have broken out yet. Usually we are cleaning up after the violence that has already occurred—murder, regret, lost love, and other unfinished business. Everything in Fate can be treated like a character, so for two lovers their star-crossed love would have a stress track, aspects, stunts, and in every scene that we work on getting the lovers together, we make "attacks" on that "character." When we defeat it, their business is settled and they move on to the afterlife (and we get our bodies back—again, long story).

Hope that helps!

Either of those games would make great novels. That second one in particular. I love that concept and I wish I'd thought of it.

But yeah, I'm going to have more fights. I like action. Whether Fate is for me or not... well, I guess we'll find out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cailano View Post
Either of those games would make great novels. That second one in particular. I love that concept and I wish I'd thought of it.

But yeah, I'm going to have more fights. I like action. Whether Fate is for me or not... well, I guess we'll find out.
In two separate Dresden games I played a Dragon's Aide De Camp armed with a tooth shaped into a blade and a Lycanthrope Shepard trying to guide the moon cursed to a better path. Both saw plenty of combat, where they were technical and tactical fighters. Well the Lycanthrope started that way, but he could get out of control.

FATE handles action and combat just fine if you understand the levers and buttons. Yes, everyone has to be on the same page so to speak. Players need to be willing to ask questions, offer some assumptions that the GM is willing to go along with. Now, world building is a group effort, but it isn't all just what the players want. The GM has plenty of say in setting, antagonists and theme, so don't let that concept intimidate you. It is a game where you can have Thor and Hawkeye at the same table. FATE's core mechanic to balance things like this are FATE points, those with fewer powers/always on abilities usually have more of them to affect the world.

One of my favorite things about Fate is that it's conflict resolution system is used for everything -- foot races, debates, street fights. It's all Skills and Aspects and Boosts. Once you figure out combat you can make a game about court intrigue or street-criminal politics or asteroid miners!

As long as those fights have a narrative purpose, go for it. But the moment conflict is used as a crutch because the actual narrative going on isn't interesting do I find that they lose any excitement. That's the main issue, that conflicts serve an entirely different purpose than in d20-based games. Players have little mechanical incentive to seek out conflict (no experience, loot or other things), so those reasons and incentives need to be narrative.

I have the warhammer 40k rpgs but I find them to be very, very dense. I'm currently working on a hack I'm terming Fatehammer 40k: "Inquisition edition" but find myself a little time strapped, would anyone here mind helping me with it? If so I'll post the google doc link.

And here some material for you Cailano:
Geek and Sundry Fate Core Episode

It's them playing Fate Core, this might help you, see it more with the interaction between players and GMs, aspects, skills etc...

Anyway, that's about as much as I can contribute to this thread, so good gaming. At the end day, play what you want to play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cailano View Post
So your other Fate games just had no combat at all?

This kind of stuff worries me. I worry about venturing into the realm of narrative games and finding that there is basically no game. That's not a knock on the people who do that sort of thing but I know it's not what I want, personally. I want an RPG, and I want one with some action.
Even a negotiation can be a fight in Fate. At least mechanically, that is.

And two words to remember are Campaign Aspects. You could put "Doubt Attracts Door-Busting Ninjas/Men With Gun" as a campaign Aspect, and use it to materialize ninja attacks out of thin air whenever the group isn't acting decisively.

But yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes it feels too much like we're telling a story instead of playing a game where the characters are acting, right? That's Fate working as intended, mind you, but sometimes I don't want that, and that's it!
Never had a problem getting enough game out of a narrative game, usually the problem is more likely to be getting too much game, including where the players don't want any rules to be applied!

That's why my "con" was "can get too meta". And it's also why I'd strongly prefer PbtA games to Fate, if that's all the choice I've got. though, of course, it's never the only choice!

And either way, if the group is tarrying too much, I can drop ninjas without any aspects, if the characters had attracted any ninja attention.




 

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