I miss the old conservatives - Page 3 - OG Myth-Weavers

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I miss the old conservatives

 
True, but there are some trully delusional people out there.
Of course teh main problem with anyone going seccessionist is that the urban areas are pretty mainstream, even in cities with lots of backwoods and fringe tea party types, which means we would have more of a geurilla insurrectionist movement trying to "take back" America than a state by state divided up civil war.

I'll have to look it up, but some guy made an infographic of the US from the 2012 Presidential campaign that had a red dot for every hundred Romney votes and a blue dot for every hundred Obama votes. The entire map, regardless of state, city, or country, was purple.

I miss them as well. They would have pointed out how many of our economic problems are tied to various legislative attempts to fix them. We have legislation that strong armed banks to give out loans to recipients that everyone knew couldn't afford them. The media called it the "sub-prime" mess. It was merely banks complying with federal legislation that directed loans be made available to certain market segments or else.

Those same old school conservatives wouldn't have needed the creation of DHS to fix what was essentially a failure to share intel and enforce existing immigration law.

The truth is this entire country misses them. 45 percent of the country just doesn't realise it yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silveroak View Post
30 years ago conservative commentators would have pointed out that raising the minimum wage would also increase the cost of production, and there would be no real net benefit. They would have pointed out that while McDonalds may have made $5 billion in profits, individual stores are owned by franchisees, and they cannot necessarilly affoard the hgher wages. They would have pointed out that anyone for whom minimum wage is insufficient is free to look for work elsewhere, and that the problem is the economy instead of the minimum wage, that those jobs are not more available.
They are free to look elsewhere, but they're not likely to get any better wages without getting the education they need to succeed. Some, perhaps, have frittered away earlier opportunities to do that for various reasons, but a lot of them were facing a much more uphill battle than you or I to begin with, and they are now trapped in the bottom echelon of the labor market.

McDonalds and their franchises will pass higher wages on to the customer, which might result in a decrease in sales and could ultimately lead to some loss of business and of jobs.

However, higher wages for low paid workers generally go straight back into the economy. A lot faster and more directly than the McDonald's high-ups fat bonuses (already written off before that $5B profit) will, since they have immediate needs to satisfy and will spend the money, creating more jobs for other people, whereas the corporate high-ups have many ways to hide money where it won't be taxed or used to create jobs, at least in the U.S.

McDonald's workers were getting screwed and few had opportunities to work elsewhere when the economy was good, too, so I don't think it is accurate to blame their low wages on the economy. Although it is better than blaming the workers for failing to take advantage of opportunities most of them have not had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silveroak View Post
Instead Fox News insulted the McDonald's workers, said that low wages are supposed to be bad as an incentive to move up, and criticized McDonald's workers who were protesting and in tehir late 20's for the fact they had famillies to feed. They have gone from a party of intelligence and principle to being the mean popular kids at highschool. How can we get the old Republican party back?
Been doing a little reading for a US history class I'll be teaching this fall. The short story is this: the old Republican Party was a coalition of hard-line conservatives whose views aren't so different from the contemporary Fox News/Teaparty crowd (guys like Joe McCarthy and Barry Goldwater) with moderate conservatives (guys like Nelson Rockefeller and Dwight Eisenhower) who were willing to work within the framework of the New Deal welfare state in order to rein in what they saw as its worst tendencies. This coalition was destabilized by the aforementioned Southern Strategy between the late sixties and the early eighties, in tandem with the Civil Rights Movement, the Vietnam War, and what we often call the Culture Wars. The end result was a larger, more powerful Republican constituency, which became dominant in US politics starting in the Reagan era, but because it was a larger, less cohesive coalition, and because the hard-line conservatives gained enough strength in the process to think they could get more of what they wanted if they pushed moderates (think Bob Dole, Arlen Specter, Olympia Snow) out of power, an intra-party struggle developed, and the hard-liners won. This basically started with Gingrich's "Contract with America" in 1994, and the process was completed about the end of Bush's first term, when Colin Powell resigned. The result of that, in turn, was a slimmer, more cohesive Republican Party, that could control Congress based on the way things are districted, but not strong enough to keep a Democrat out of the White House in a nationwide election--hence Obama's victory, but difficulty getting things done. Hence a national health care plan that was basically what Dole proposed, but is now labeled as "socialist" by the current Republican Party.

How can you get the old Republican Party back? You probably can't, but you could transform it into something new if a bunch of moderate conservatives with resources made a concerted effort to beat back Fox and the Tea Party and come up with sensible, moderately legislation. Or, alternatively, you could make the "new" Republican Party irrelevant by forming a new political movement that embraced popular, sensible reforms like Obamacare and some kind of reasonable immigration plan, while working to keep government from growing too much and taxes at a reasonable level. The problem with that strategy is that the Dems have basically occupied that ground for the last half a decade. You could, though, join them, drag the Democratic Party to the right, and watch the liberal wing of the Democrats split off to form a left wing party.

In other words, your old Republican Party's values are essentially represented by a segment of the Democratic Party these days. That's why I voted for Reagan in 1984, but have voted a straight Democratic ticket since 1992.

For those of you who don't like coalitions: How do you propose to make democracy work without them? Successful U.S. political parties have always been coalitions.

There are a lot of issues we could drag out and talk about Old Conservatives, New Conservatives, and Democrats, but one that I want to use as an example is this: medicare reform. The new Republicans brought up the idea of vouchers. It isn't a new idea, it has been brought up many times before, but the New Conservatives seemed to feel it was all or nothing, no compromise, and that all of Medicare should be put into a voucher program. Decades ago when it was brought up last we wound up with Medicare part C which is essentially Medicare being run by private companies. Now I certainly would not call that program an unquallified success- it costs more than regular medicare ang generates more paperwork and complaints, but it has certainly had some points of success as well. I think replacing the current part C with a voucher based program could be successfull. I also think the Old Conservatives would have worked towards that deal. The New Conservatives just made a lot of noise, complained about democrats, and faded away in a mess of sound and fury.
The problem isn't the democrats, my point here is not about getting rid of teh democrats or beating them down or how to defeat them. My point is that the New Conservatives are all ego and attitude and have lost the intelligence of the Old Conservatives. The two party system needs two functional parties, and it won't work if the Republicans are being disfunctional as they are today. The party needs to be fixed or replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silveroak View Post
There are a lot of issues we could drag out and talk about Old Conservatives, New Conservatives, and Democrats, but one that I want to use as an example is this: medicare reform. The new Republicans brought up the idea of vouchers. It isn't a new idea, it has been brought up many times before, but the New Conservatives seemed to feel it was all or nothing, no compromise, and that all of Medicare should be put into a voucher program. Decades ago when it was brought up last we wound up with Medicare part C which is essentially Medicare being run by private companies. Now I certainly would not call that program an unquallified success- it costs more than regular medicare ang generates more paperwork and complaints, but it has certainly had some points of success as well. I think replacing the current part C with a voucher based program could be successfull. I also think the Old Conservatives would have worked towards that deal. The New Conservatives just made a lot of noise, complained about democrats, and faded away in a mess of sound and fury.
The problem isn't the democrats, my point here is not about getting rid of teh democrats or beating them down or how to defeat them. My point is that the New Conservatives are all ego and attitude and have lost the intelligence of the Old Conservatives. The two party system needs two functional parties, and it won't work if the Republicans are being disfunctional as they are today. The party needs to be fixed or replaced.
I like how creating a new program that costs more, produces worse results, and leads to more complaints is considered anything other than an abject failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mildly_competent View Post
This?
Yes, thank you! I spent half an hour looking, then gave up. Too many maps going with county info.

Quote:
I like how creating a new program that costs more, produces worse results, and leads to more complaints is considered anything other than an abject failure.
I wouldn't call medicare part c an abject failure primarilly because it was introduced as a compromise on what was supposed to be an expirimental basis and it has produced some usefull information. For those not aware, Medicare part C basically allows people to contract who will handle their medicare benefits, but with government still keeping a very tight watch on the companies, and paying them based not on people served but on benefits given- I could do an entire thread on part c but would lkely be just me posting...

Our countries For Profit healthcare system really needs reform, and a voucher based reform isn't going to do good. Medicare Part C is definitely a failure, and shouldn't ever be lifted up as a "success" of the system the conservatives are trying to promote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gakwildcat View Post
Our countries For Profit healthcare system really needs reform, and a voucher based reform isn't going to do good. Medicare Part C is definitely a failure, and shouldn't ever be lifted up as a "success" of the system the conservatives are trying to promote.
You didn't really present much to respond to with that one (except the medicare thing, which is wrong).

Although, it did bring up something I wanted to complain about:

What happened to the mentality in America? Maybe I'm too young to know what I'm talking about, but I feel like people treated each other better 50 years ago. Before anyone responds (though, that would require them reading this thread): Yes, I know that different groups of people treated each other poorly. Bigotry was rampant. But, on the whole, I feel like there was a "look out for each other" ideal that we're just lacking.

The main part of this that I'd like someone to respond to is a discussion of any of the older weavers about code of conduct from when they were younger. Were people better to each other back then or am I just having trouble taking off my rose-colored glasses?




 

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