There Are Problems in the US Tax System (duh) - Page 4 - OG Myth-Weavers

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There Are Problems in the US Tax System (duh)

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TW Teczka View Post
Technical question - what is your expectation:
-no government (in package goes rampant crime and risk/hope that local warlords or external power would reintroduce a gov)?
-night watch government with very low taxes (offers police, small army, a bit of infrastructure and nothing more, everything else paid privately)?
-some different government that would fit your ethical believes (but how such gov is supposed to work without tax money)?
1 is obviously unworkable.
2 would be nice, but again, probably unworkable.
3 we're talking a more realistic situation.

I'm not saying that there should be no taxes anywhere ever, or that nothing government does is good ever; that's actually crazy. What I'm saying is that a choice between 'government by armed warlords' and 'government by corrupt shills' is a really shitty choice. Democracy seems to inevitably devolve into the 'corrupt shills' format, while the other forms tend to devolve into the 'armed warlords' format, and both suck.

Ideally, I'd like a government that's actually transparent, responsible, and accountable, instead of merely theoretically aspiring to those properties. I'd like a government whose first and foremost duty really is to its people, and not merely to the people bribing it. Going into really far-out and unexplored territory, I'd like a government that taxed minimally and fairly, invested its money in the same sense that a corporation would, with the aim of ultimately making profits enabling it to be self-sufficient, not reliant on any taxes, and reinvesting its profits in its people and infrastructure.

But all of that is so different from any nation that actually exists as to be almost meaningless.

So if a government with low taxes is unworkable, why were you just describing paying money as "putting more money in the hands of your corrupt and 'evil' rulers"?
Either it's unworkable for these rulers not to get money, or it's undesirable for them to get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikul View Post
There's this nuance that you seem to be missing. "Corporations lobbied to have the tax code made labyrinthine" is not the same as "All corporations are part of a conspiracy that controls everything that ever happens".

May you back up your claim that I made that claim in the first place?
Quote:
The ones doing the complaining are the "groups that have actively lobbied". That's the entire point. See?
I hope that this time I quoted the proper person.

Quote:
Teczka, I won't say democracy doesn't work - as it is, it's the best thing we have with not even any close runners-up.
But that doesn't mean that in any country with a democratic, or other vote-based system (I know some people disagree with the US being described as a 'democracy'), every single decision and every single policy is decided by the votes. Sometimes, no matter who you vote for, a lizard will get into office
I mean part of this problem is actually democracy as such. Does enough people have knowledge about some policy? Do they understand it? Are they willing to punish in next election politician who let it pass? If any of those requirements is failed then undesirable policies are likely.

By occasion - when this topic was about taxation as such where some professional knowledge is required to be able to discuss that - there weren't many poster here. When now it's about general ideology then plenty of people have lot's to say

I'm well aware that what I want and what reality provides are two entirely different things.

I want to live in a country with a genuinely honest and moral government, that will actually use any money it needs to take from me on things that actually make my life better... instead of living in a country with a corrupt and unaccountable government, that takes my money for some combination of personal gain, crony-type favour trading, and political advertisement.

I don't think the country I want to live in exists, but that doesn't stop me from wanting rulers who are genuinely moral and trustworthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endovior View Post
1 is obviously unworkable.
2 would be nice, but again, probably unworkable.
3 we're talking a more realistic situation.

I'm not saying that there should be no taxes anywhere ever, or that nothing government does is good ever; that's actually crazy. What I'm saying is that a choice between 'government by armed warlords' and 'government by corrupt shills' is a really shitty choice. Democracy seems to inevitably devolve into the 'corrupt shills' format, while the other forms tend to devolve into the 'armed warlords' format, and both suck.

Ideally, I'd like a government that's actually transparent, responsible, and accountable, instead of merely theoretically aspiring to those properties. I'd like a government whose first and foremost duty really is to its people, and not merely to the people bribing it. Going into really far-out and unexplored territory, I'd like a government that taxed minimally and fairly, invested its money in the same sense that a corporation would, with the aim of ultimately making profits enabling it to be self-sufficient, not reliant on any taxes, and reinvesting its profits in its people and infrastructure.

But all of that is so different from any nation that actually exists as to be almost meaningless.
So if you want to change gov from "corrupted" to "utopian", how not paying taxes is supposed to help achieving that aim?

I'm not sure whether idea 2 would be really liked by general population - I mean very small gov would be unable to provide safety net, health care or pensions. (they are really expensive positions)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TW Teczka View Post
To be honest they aren't much better at that than people who made interests on their mortgage tax deductible or farmers who get subsidies. I'd say something unpleasant, that still in a democratic country by definition top 1% has only 1% of votes so its the majority that shapes the law.
Why are you equating voting with lobbying? They're very different things.

The lobbyists decide what topics get made into a bill, which the legislature then votes on. As a normal joe, I don't get to participate anywhere in that process, though presumably one of the legislators who's voting works for me.

Still, it's the lobbyist who funds an issue being made into a bill. We (through our legislators) don't even get to vote on a topic if the lobbyists haven't approved of it.

So, yeah, not an equivalence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TW Teczka View Post
I'm not sure whether idea 2 would be really liked by general population - I mean very small gov would be unable to provide safety net, health care or pensions. (they are really expensive positions)
Some parts of some populations would, specifically those who think safety nets and healthcare are for the weak and inferior. Libertarian movements and whatnot.

Yes, i would say the government is, on ballance, good. Certainly not perfect, but good.
And yes, depriving it of money (in terms of the word deprivation)
Quote:
1.The damaging lack of material benefits considered to be basic necessities in a society.
is a bad thing.
Lets be honest here, the IRS investigation of groups funneling money into what was essentially an anarchist revolutionary group under teh guise of a charity purportedly to support the public welfare *deserved* to be investigated at minimum. The IRS was doing it's job properly.

Perhaps it would be better to replace income taxes with federal sales taxes, especially 'sin' taxes and 'luxury' taxes? I don't think that there would be any reduction in paperwork, but the loopholes could be much more direct as in 'no tax on the first car that an entity buys in a ten year period' or 'no tax on unprocessed foodstuffs', ect. Thoughts?





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