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Codes of conduct without alignment.

   
Codes of conduct without alignment.

I'm currently making my own tabletop RPG. It does not have an alignment system, and it never will because alignment systems are god awful for gameplay, but in-game organizations have codes of conduct and some classes are inherently linked to organizations. For example, in the game a priest of Yahweh should absolutely not be walking down the street in their boxers drinking a bottle of whiskey on their way to the casino with a big bag of donated money and there would be severe consequences for them if they did. (Excommunication, at least, and in some places execution.)

The problem is, however, that quite often there's no actual mechanical reason to follow these codes of conduct. You aren't losing your spellcasting powers because you're breaking your religion's rules, and it's a major point in the setting that the religious institutions are extremely corrupt and these codes of conduct are violated all over the place behind closed doors. It'd still be wrong, though, for a member of the clergy to show a blatant disregard for their religion's rules. Outside of the religious example, a member of a knightly order also has appearances to keep up. As does an army officer. As does a professor. As do many others.

So, outside of mechanical motivations, what motivation could be provided for player characters that are members of an organisation to follow (or at least pretend to follow) their organisation's rules when they're not in a position for that information to make its way back to their superiors? Especially when the party is around, what motivation could they have to follow their rules or hide breaking them when the party probably isn't going to rat them out?

Why worry? Talk to your players when you get them, tweak whatever organisations they want their characters to be part of to reflect whatever code of conduct they want to abide by, and they'll merrily roleplay their way along.
If their character doesn't want to abide by the culture of whatever organisation they're in, and they aren't corrupt thieving scoundrels, there wouldn't really be any reason for them to be in it (except perhaps for elaborate character arcs where someone was raised in a particular tradition but is now uncertain as to whether they should keep upholding it).

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Originally Posted by Avaday Daydream View Post
Why worry?
Because these are pre-built institutions that intentionally have uncomfortable rules that reasonable people don't like. The setting's intentionally making a point by doing that.

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Talk to your players when you get them, tweak whatever organisations they want their characters to be part of to reflect whatever code of conduct they want to abide by, and they'll merrily roleplay their way along.
If their character doesn't want to abide by the culture of whatever organisation they're in, and they aren't corrupt thieving scoundrels, there wouldn't really be any reason for them to be in it (except perhaps for elaborate character arcs where someone was raised in a particular tradition but is now uncertain as to whether they should keep upholding it).
I'm the game designer, not the GM. That's all the GM's job, when it gets passed to them after the book's written. I may be A GM, but I'm not THE GM, and I already know I'm only one of *at least* two people who are going to GM in this game and hopefully many more. I'm looking for how to advise a (hopefully large) group of people.

I've toyed with the idea of adding a Self Discipline stat in my games. The classical Greeks, among others, thought it one of the highest virtues.

In game systems where characters self-train during downtime, every PC seems to use his time with perfect efficiency, always in the gym or the library, never hanging out in the tavern or sleeping in. Self Discipline then determines what percentage of his downtime the character uses for training instead of goofing off. I made Self Discipline a fixed value at character creation.

You could vary the value of a character's Self Discipline in-game as he takes on stricter codes of conduct and obeys them. But this last bit would involve you awarding or penalizing players for their in-character choices. That could lead to grumbling.

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Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
I'm currently making my own tabletop RPG. It does not have an alignment system, and it never will because alignment systems are god awful for gameplay, but in-game organizations have codes of conduct and some classes are inherently linked to organizations.
Classless systems with Code of Conduct and similar disadvantages, have been solving that issue for ages. Can I recommend taking a look at some of them?

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The problem is, however, that quite often there's no actual mechanical reason to follow these codes of conduct.
Then introduce such reasons.

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You aren't losing your spellcasting powers because you're breaking your religion's rules,
Why not?

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and it's a major point in the setting that the religious institutions are extremely corrupt and these codes of conduct are violated all over the place behind closed doors.
Presumably, by people with more authority than magical powers.

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So, outside of mechanical motivations, what motivation could be provided for player characters that are members of an organisation to follow (or at least pretend to follow) their organisation's rules when they're not in a position for that information to make its way back to their superiors? Especially when the party is around, what motivation could they have to follow their rules or hide breaking them when the party probably isn't going to rat them out?
Let me see some options I've encountered.
First, two for systems that give you character building points for taking a disadvantage.
-You got character creation points in order to take Code of Conduct. All your XP starts going towards buying off those points (and in some versions you don't get a 1:1, because you have presumably used the powers already), until you pay it off. It's probably going to be a few sessions, too.
-Your Code of Conduct is replaced by the Disadvantage: Social Stigma, at the same point value (and if you go in another land where it's unknown, by Disadvantage: Outsider, same point value).
Other systems give you meta-points (similar to action points) when your disadvantages crop up.
-So, everyone else is getting points from their disadvantages, but you're not. Feel it was a good trade-off? No? Keep it in mind next time...
-Harsher version: you have to pay meta-points to even act against the disadvantage.

I don't know the specifics of your system, but it's possible to use something similar, too.

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Originally Posted by hakootoko View Post
I've toyed with the idea of adding a Self Discipline stat in my games. The classical Greeks, among others, thought it one of the highest virtues.

In game systems where characters self-train during downtime, every PC seems to use his time with perfect efficiency, always in the gym or the library, never hanging out in the tavern or sleeping in. Self Discipline then determines what percentage of his downtime the character uses for training instead of goofing off. I made Self Discipline a fixed value at character creation.

You could vary the value of a character's Self Discipline in-game as he takes on stricter codes of conduct and obeys them. But this last bit would involve you awarding or penalizing players for their in-character choices. That could lead to grumbling.
That might be more of a GM-specific interpretation. Not that that's a bad thing, but I can't give that as a standard rule and I need more generalised advice than just that (though maybe including that) since other GMs may have issues that are not adequately addressed.

I can, however, give a note to GMs saying that a player who shows particularly low discipline in maintaining the code of conduct of their order should face some consequence for doing so, and even recommend to contrive a witness in extreme examples and have their superiors float a rumour to them to give gentle, non-mechanical reinforcement.

If your code of conduct is entirely something imposed by an organisation, then doesn't that provide all the appropriate motivations? If a member of the clergy disregards his order's rules, he'll get in trouble with his superiors. If he doesn't care... does that actually matter? Worrying about this is a bit like worrying how to force a character with a short temper to lose their temper, when the player chose for them to be that way in the first place. Either the player is playing a character who cares about these rules, in which case you don't need to enforce them, or they're not, in which case you don't want them to follow them anyway.

Use social norms and power games to enforce the rules. There are valid reasons for keeping corruption secret in a corrupt society. A lot of the punishment will not come from their superiors. It will come from other sources. The priest walking down the street is going to be seen, and there will be consequences. Some ideas for consequences:

Some people are going to be mad, and will start nasty rumors about the person. Soon no one will want to be seen in public with them. The party is not going to be too happy when they are not allowed into stores, or inns. Or party members might be ordered by their organizations to stay away from this drunken priest. Some people will report to the superiors so they can collect reward, or they will demand a huge bribe to remain quiet. The casino will not want any involvement with the situation. They should turn the priest away, and maybe even call the night watch upon him.

Another ambitious priest sees him do this. Accusing the drunken priest of heresy and corruption is a great way for this person to make a name for himself. A crime lord might have some of his men quickly usher the priest off the street to protect the priest's reputation. Now the priest has a huge IOU with a crime lord.

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Originally Posted by AsenRG View Post
Classless systems with Code of Conduct and similar disadvantages, have been solving that issue for ages. Can I recommend taking a look at some of them?
Maybe, but it's awfully late tonight and I started drinking an hour ago. I'm probably also going to continue drinking and then go to bed, and I've been scheduled for my weekend (I need money and agreed to "any and all overtime").

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Then introduce such reasons.
That's a hard "no" from me. These rules are entirely social, and need social reasons for being maintained. Their violation is a part of the setting, and the rules need to encourage players who want to be crooked to be crooked in secret rather than encouraging them to not be crooked at all.

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Why not?
Because I only want to discourage unrealistic rulebreaking, not realistic rulebreaking. I actually want to encourage realistic rulebreaking. I want a player to look at a rule and think "Well, it's dumb I can't do that, but if I do that I'll get in trouble." and then "So I'd better just not do that even if I want to." or "I'd better hide it if I do it." I want to teach a little lesson here about stupid rules.

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Presumably, by people with more authority than magical powers.
Some of them are actually very powerful casters and yet they break the rules. Their authority is great, but they have the magical power and it's not taken away by breaking their religion's rules. The gods of this setting's religions are NOT REAL, and they are the source of their own power. They only need to double-think or pick a class not based on the faith stat and they can break every rule and keep all casting power.

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Let me see some options I've encountered.
First, two for systems that give you character building points for taking a disadvantage.
-You got character creation points in order to take Code of Conduct. All your XP starts going towards buying off those points (and in some versions you don't get a 1:1, because you have presumably used the powers already), until you pay it off. It's probably going to be a few sessions, too.
-Your Code of Conduct is replaced by the Disadvantage: Social Stigma, at the same point value (and if you go in another land where it's unknown, by Disadvantage: Outsider, same point value).
Other systems give you meta-points (similar to action points) when your disadvantages crop up.
-So, everyone else is getting points from their disadvantages, but you're not. Feel it was a good trade-off? No? Keep it in mind next time...
-Harsher version: you have to pay meta-points to even act against the disadvantage.
Not applicable, sorry. Faith is a main stat in the game, it's got an EXTREMELY loose interpretation and basically amounts to a firmness to one's beliefs, but it's a main stat and it means they have to believe to some extent that "wrong" is wrong.

Plus you can just go the obvious route of such organizations always having way too many skeletons in their closet and thus always looking for a scapegoat to dump those on. So your priest or knight or whatever can pretty much do what ever the hell they want among each other, but embarrassing the organization too much in front of outsiders might mean they get framed for every single dirty deed done by every member of that group over the last 10 years.

And for every abuse or dirty secret that organization has it's always going to have some young gogetter looking to advance his position by finding someone for his bosses to blame.


One more thing to note is that any organization that dispenses social, political, economic or magical power to its members is going to be rather picky about who they accept. And people who have issues with authority and obeying rules are generally going to be passed over to begin with. There is a reason why there aren't many rebellious independent minded priests or soldiers throughout history. Dirty Harry might make for a fun character. But in reality one such as him would newer have ever gotten a police job.




 

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