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New player frustration

   
I don't entirely disagree, but just to play devil's advocate - what if I'm in 13 games, but I really want to be in 20 games? Another person might only be in one and really want to be in two, and so giving me the spot would do them out of an opportunity to play... but giving them the spot would do me out of the opportunity to play, too. And yeah, in this hypothetical example I'm already in plenty of games but is that actually relevant? This other person might have plenty of other fun things to occupy their time, whereas I might be living out in the sticks where playing MW is like the only form of entertainment I have.

But really my point is that, yeah, arguably there's a fairness angle to it, but I don't think that the question of whether a given person has the time or mental capacity to commit to the game is one that can be answered just by looking at the number of games they have listed.

(Especially when what you see isn't necessarily accurate anyway - some of those may be all-but-dead games, and people may be playing in other, private games, or games elsewhere. Looking at myself, for example, you said "13" but that's not true, I'm in 10 and DMing 3, which is quite a different thing, but actually I'm also playing in two of the ones I'm DMing and DMing in one of the ones I'm playing in, which I'm also playing in twice - it's basically two games - and I'm also DMing and playing in a private game which doesn't show up there - but then two of those games are essentially inactive and another couple are moving at very slow paces... all in all, just counting them doesn't give you a lot of information)

Personally, I just pick the players who created the best characters (for a given value of "best", obviously - that's kind of subjective).

And yes, a DM can do what they want, but how is that relevant? A discussion about what DMs should do or what is ethical for them to do is no less valid just because one could choose to deviate from that - it doesn't mean that they're right to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
I don't entirely disagree, but just to play devil's advocate - what if I'm in 13 games, but I really want to be in 20 games? Another person might only be in one and really want to be in two, and so giving me the spot would do them out of an opportunity to play... but giving them the spot would do me out of the opportunity to play, too. And yeah, in this hypothetical example I'm already in plenty of games but is that actually relevant? This other person might have plenty of other fun things to occupy their time, whereas I might be living out in the sticks where playing MW is like the only form of entertainment I have.
I'm making a hot dogs party and I buy two dozens of weiners and breads. Now, there is this kid that came in and despite his knowledge of the limited quantity of hot dogs, he want to eat as much as 20. This other person might have plenty of other things to eat, could eat slower and adapt his needs otherwise, whereas he might be living out in the sticks where hot dogs is the only type of food he wanna eat. And f*** the other that won't have one, or stuck eating 2-3 because of his eating habits... This is exactly how it sound to me.

There is plenty way to deal with a big crave for PhP like making bigger and more intricate post, joining more fast paced games where people are active or whatever. People have the right to apply to any game they want, but should it impede on the right to play of the others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
(Especially when what you see isn't necessarily accurate anyway - some of those may be all-but-dead games, and people may be playing in other, private games, or games elsewhere.
I'm talking and still talking about activity on Myth Weavers and nowhere else. And if a game is dead, you can easily quitting those game and boom, they're not on you Myth Weavers account status. It is exactly an excuse that one of my players said to me to get accepted in the game I was talking earlier. He was in 20 games, but was telling me ''nah, those are only dead game''... so I took the player anyway and surprise surprise - he was exactly what I was talking about - he posted like a snail, ruined the fun of the others by complaining about the rest of the group that was posting too fast for him (despite his insurance that it will be otherwise, and a more frustrating fact here - he had time to make 3 other applications instead of taking the time to post in my game...). I saw the same phenomenon in many other games so far.

Some are like you and can keep posting 15 times per days... good for you or them, but it's rather rare because most people aren't able to keep that pace. And most of the people I saw that have more than 10 games, well, their stat doesn't show a fast posting rate in the reality. (When I'm looking into stats of someone, I take in account his posting rate too)

The example of my game that I was talking about earlier, it was clearly stated that it was for people who didn't had the chance to be in games and for new players, and I also stated the posting rate that I expected for the game (5 per weeks). It didn't stop some players to feel entitled and coming like raging bull to complain in the announcement, by PM or in the OOC of the game. Most of the people that were already players (I already had 3 people in the group before I announced the game) were very...troubled of the reaction of the people. So, I don't believe that I was being unjust or being crazy here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
Looking at myself, for example, you said "13" but that's not true, I'm in 10 and DMing 3, which is quite a different thing, but actually I'm also playing in two of the ones I'm DMing and DMing in one of the ones I'm playing in, which I'm also playing in twice - it's basically two games - and I'm also DMing and playing in a private game which doesn't show up there - but then two of those games are essentially inactive and another couple are moving at very slow paces... all in all, just counting them doesn't give you a lot of information)
It's clearly stated when you are DM or player in your stats, so I can make my own judgement based on that. And it's beside my point, really. We are talking about active games. And I'm not talking about pace - you could eat 20 hot dog, some at a very fast pace or very slow pace, you still are eating half of the food for yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
Personally, I just pick the players who created the best characters (for a given value of "best", obviously - that's kind of subjective).
And who doesn't? My comments weren't even about the criteria of selection based on the quality of a players app, but rather how the over-consumption of games is impeding the right to play of people who play less or waiting to be into a game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFred View Post
And yes, a DM can do what they want, but how is that relevant? A discussion about what DMs should do or what is ethical for them to do is no less valid just because one could choose to deviate from that - it doesn't mean that they're right to.
It's like the ethic of eating 20 hot dogs out of the 48. You can do what you want. It's not because they have the appetite to eat all of them that make it right to do so.

Anyway, I'm done arguing. I understand your point, even kinda agree with at some point and you stated that it's the same on your side. I just wanted to give my 2 cents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffVerville View Post
I'm making a hot dogs party and I buy two dozens of weiners and breads. Now, there is this kid that came in and despite his knowledge of the limited quantity of hot dogs, he want to eat as much as 20. This other person might have plenty of other things to eat, could eat slower and adapt his needs otherwise, whereas he might be living out in the sticks where hot dogs is the only type of food he wanna eat. And f*** the other that won't have one, or stuck eating 2-3 because of his eating habits... This is exactly how it sound to me.

There is plenty way to deal with a big crave for PhP like making bigger and more intricate post, joining more fast paced games where people are active or whatever. People have the right to apply to any game they want, but should it impede on the right to play of the others?
That comparison would only hold water if you had any right to get selected for a game.
But you don't. You have the right to apply, and try to fit your application to the requirements in the recruitment thread/forum.
Instead, I view it like a competition. Everybody can apply, but it's insane to claim that someone is being mean to you because of winning more often than you (given that it's not a family gathering).

Well said.

Game lists a player is in is very misleading. For whatever the reasons are I find many players stay In games that are almost dead. Or are dead, or they are dead and no one wants to admit it, lol. Private games don’t show up on your list. I just looked at my games and at least 2-3 public games aren’t on there. Some games have a VERY slow post rate. I’m in 3 games where I may be required to post once a week or even two weeks.
Other games require 3-5 posts a week. Some folks have more time on their hands to game than others.
I will say one of my gripes is people who play in multiple games and don’t post in a particular game often and when they do they don’t answer other players that are talking to their character directly, they ignore the other PCs, whether on purpose or they just don’t have time or whatever. That makes it very hard for a group to gain synergy and collaboratively tell a good story.

Otherwise, AsenRG makes a very good point and I second what he said.

I can and do empathize with Jeff's Frustration, but the solution is hardly to mandate a game limit, or for GMs to say 'if you're in too many games, you won't get in'.

A reminder folks, because I’m having a good day... Watch the profanity. If the site is filtering you have crossed a line, and rules are pretty clear on self censoring also not being acceptable. If the two military vets on staff can filter themselves, so can you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylia Quilor View Post
I can and do empathize with Jeff's Frustration, but the solution is hardly to mandate a game limit, or for GMs to say 'if you're in too many games, you won't get in'.
Well, I believe GMs can do whatever they want. If they want players new to MW, they're welcome to censor those of us with too many games, too many posts here, or any other criteria*, IMO. So yes, I agree that objecting to this is entitlement.

For all that I care, I actually think that spreading the love is a well-intentioned concept. It's when some people try to claim it's ethically right** that I start having a problem.


*Not that I know how they're supposed to measure my games on other PbP forums, of which I'm participating in three...but they're welcome to measure just my MW posts. Or at least those in non-private games.
**Meaning that not doing so is ethically less-than-right...though this is of course nonsense, because we're not required to have the same ethical views to begin with. But the tone in this thread made the implication crystal clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRoot View Post
Well said.

Game lists a player is in is very misleading. For whatever the reasons are I find many players stay In games that are almost dead. Or are dead, or they are dead and no one wants to admit it, lol. Private games donít show up on your list. I just looked at my games and at least 2-3 public games arenít on there. Some games have a VERY slow post rate. Iím in 3 games where I may be required to post once a week or even two weeks.
Other games require 3-5 posts a week. Some folks have more time on their hands to game than others.
I will say one of my gripes is people who play in multiple games and donít post in a particular game often and when they do they donít answer other players that are talking to their character directly, they ignore the other PCs, whether on purpose or they just donít have time or whatever. That makes it very hard for a group to gain synergy and collaboratively tell a good story.

Otherwise, AsenRG makes a very good point and I second what he said.
First, thank you!
Second, I'm almost a case example. Visibly, I'm in 5 games...but only two of them are moving with more than a post per week or so.
Then again, concluding that I can take many games would be untrue, In fact, I'm in 6 more games on other sites, and some of those are daily posting ones.
As an end result, I can't actually afford the time to join a WRM game that I'd like to. But in the end, I'd just be holding the game down...
I can't start the game I've been working on, either. I have the ideas, I've got the game sketched up, I don't have the time to run it.
But it's because of the games you don't see. If I only had my games on MW, I could easily double my games, and run my own.


In the end, I can only conclude that the number of games is a misleading metric. But again, each GM can use any metric he wants to!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffVerville View Post
I'm making a hot dogs party and I buy two dozens of weiners and breads. Now, there is this kid that came in and despite his knowledge of the limited quantity of hot dogs, he want to eat as much as 20. This other person might have plenty of other things to eat, could eat slower and adapt his needs otherwise, whereas he might be living out in the sticks where hot dogs is the only type of food he wanna eat. And f*** the other that won't have one, or stuck eating 2-3 because of his eating habits... This is exactly how it sound to me.
Well OK, if you really want to try to apply this analogy, then OK, you've got some people who come along and eat a dozen hot dogs when others have only eaten four, and that seems unfair. But actually one of those guys is a 7ft tall giant and the other is a 6-year-old kid, so they kind of have different appetites. And one of those folk didn't eat as many hot dogs as you thought, because she dropped a hot dog on the floor and a dog snatched it. Oh and one of them brought a load of steaks and a bottle of wine, whereas another guy just rocked up and expected to be given hot dogs, and another guy brought and cooked his own hot dogs - do they count against the hot dogs he's allowed to eat, or not? What about the two he gave to one of his mates? What about the guy who ate dinner before he came out?

This is already getting kind of complicated, and the analogy does not even taking into account the fact that a game is not a hot dog; it's not just that someone is going to eat a hot dog, they're going to do it in a way which impacts on other peoples' hot dogs too, and the person cooking them. Are you going to cook a hot dog for everyone who shows up, even if you didn't invite them and want them in your house?

Here's a counter-analogy: a couple of people show up to a football club and ask to play on the team. Well, they don't have enough space for anyone, so they have tryouts. Then they say, OK, Bob over there can play even though he was worse because you, Jeff, already play in the hockey team, so it's not fair for you to hog all the sports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffVerville View Post
There is plenty way to deal with a big crave for PhP like making bigger and more intricate post, joining more fast paced games where people are active or whatever.
And how, prey tell, does one join a fast-paced game when they're not allowed to apply for any more games because they're already in too many?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffVerville View Post
I'm talking and still talking about activity on Myth Weavers and nowhere else.
Why? Why do you care how many games I am in here, but not elsewhere? What makes these games more relevant to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffVerville View Post
And if a game is dead, you can easily quitting those game and boom, they're not on you Myth Weavers account status.
And... why should I have to do that? Why does whether I've quit a none-active game have any bearing on applying for a different game?

And what about games which are still taking place, just very slowly? One post a month may well be perfectly fine for a game, but don't tell me that it makes me too busy to play in another or that it's equivalent to a game with a much faster posting rate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffVerville View Post
It is exactly an excuse that one of my players said to me to get accepted in the game I was talking earlier. He was in 20 games, but was telling me ''nah, those are only dead game''... so I took the player anyway and surprise surprise - he was exactly what I was talking about - he posted like a snail, ruined the fun of the others by complaining about the rest of the group that was posting too fast for him (despite his insurance that it will be otherwise, and a more frustrating fact here - he had time to make 3 other applications instead of taking the time to post in my game...). I saw the same phenomenon in many other games so far.
So... you took one player, and he was slow, and you think this is a universal law? I've seen loads of players not in any other games dropping like flies (indeed, those in none at all are probably more likely to drop, as they've less to keep them here). I've seen players in loads of games who post loads. Posting rate isn't even a great indicator either because some (like me) post loads of rubbish, not interesting stuff.

So, yeah, I see where you're coming from, I just don't think it's as simple as all that.

As someone who’s in a dead game (for which we’re keeping the forum active for reasons) in which I am theoretically playing four characters, I think there’s no harm in having some games in which JeffVerVille’s rule applies.

It would be an obvious problem if it were all MW games - after all it’s a very imperfect indicator of how active a potential player really is (for the reasons that TheFred and others have pointed out - they might be playing on other sites, and games vary widely in how time-consuming they are). But it’s reasonable for there to be a space carved out for “not so active on MW” players, for similar reasons to the “reserving slots/entire games for new players” thing. It counters the (also not unreasonable) tendency for players who have played a lot to keep being chosen, because their reliability is more of a proven quantity, and might allow some players who have the potential to be like that to realize their potential. This is perhaps especially the case for people who are better at feeling their way into their characters in play than writing applications with immediate appeal.







 

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