Tovam Hraudrugar, Disciple of Sune

[TheFred]

Tovam Hraudrugar

Handsome Half-Orc | Suave Spellslinger | Disciple of Sune

Name: Tovam Hraudrugar Race: Half-Orc Gender: Male Classes: Witch (Seducer) / Heartwarder Alignment: Chaotic Good Deity: Sune

https://joannekwan.tumblr.com

Half-orcs raised amongst humans never have the easiest time of it, even in big cities like Waterdeep where folks of all races and backgrounds rub shoulders - and Tovam felt this pain more acutely than most. Perhaps if he'd been all orc he could at least have embraced it, been strong and brutal and made a name for himself amongst the slums and shanties of his home, or left the city entirely for a life on the road as some bandit or raider. As it was, he yearned for the finer things he saw amongst the wealthier parts of town, and hated his orcish blood for its violent, ugly nature, and the dirty looks it earned him from the people of his neighbourhood.

Then, he found religion.

It's rare for a half-orc to embrace the teachings of Sune, their goblinoid ancestry being more typically associated with ugliness and rancour, but the young Tovam was fortunate enough to meet a group of Sunites who taught him that beauty can be found in all things, and runs more than skin-deep. Tovam, who had always felt like an artist and sociality born into the wrong body, and the wrong life, suddenly saw the endless possibilities that his future could hold. Astounding his family and neighbours, he immediately joined the church - and hasn't looked back since.

 

Personality

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Lighthearted and ever optimistic, Tovam doesn't take much very seriously and is hard to get down. A flamboyant dandy and unashamed ladies' man, he tells jokes, performs, and flirts incorrigibly with almost everyone and everything. Some might say he is prone to making a fool of himself, but Tovam never apologises for bringing a little levity and joy to any situation.

Tovam knows that his calling is to spread love and joy everywhere he goes, so when he isn't actively trying to seduce someone himself (something which occupies a great deal of his time), he is quite happy to play matchmaker or self-styled fashion guru, helping others to enjoy as much beauty and love as possible by making introductions, providing relationship advice, or simply making sure that they look fabulous.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by TheFred (see edit history)

[TheFred]

Mechanics

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Honestly nothing special here, mostly Witch casting with a tasty Heartwarder Cha bonus.

A good Cha and a few extra bonuses also means great Bluff and Diplomacy.

Evil Eye + Cackle (perhaps refluffed as Disarming Wink + Smirk?) opens up some repeatable debuff but slightly lacks the punch it should have at this level (given the lack of real Witch levels).

Tovam is an arcane caster, and enchantment-focused, not a divine caster, but he does get access to some Cure spells and, anyway, UMD.

Edited November 19, 2023 by TheFred (see edit history)

[TheFred]

Notes

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I was originally going to go with a more classic half-elf, probably female Heartwarder; in PF Half-Elves can swap their Skill Focus for EWP and they're explicitly called out as being amongst Sune's worshippers in Faiths and Pantheons. I figured that would be cliched and boring, however, and why not try something different and make a dashing half-orc?

I'm still working on exactly how Tovam came to be in Cormanthyr. He grew up in the rough part of a big city (I'm thinking Waterdeep but it could be anywhere, really) but with access to Teleport, he could have started anywhere and still found his way here. The Church is probably quite happy to see Cormanthyr rebuilt, particularly if this means the restoration of any architecturally-beautiful buildings or the recovery of fine works of art, but Tovam is probably also quite content simply taking a job for money as he can spread love and joy wherever he goes anyway.

Edited November 18, 2023 by TheFred (see edit history)

[TheFred]

OK, well, he's a sketch of a character; assuming this all seems workable, I have a few specific questions (but none of them are exactly critical to the concept so no rush):

• Witches can learn spells by burning scrolls or by swapping with other Witches. Would I just pay another Witch the same fee that a Wizard would pay for copying a spell, or do I actually have to buy (much more expensive) scrolls? Sadly I think in PF you get no automatic spells when you PrC out.
• The L6 Seducer Witch ability sucks so I looking for something else to take. Are you open to non-FR-specific PrCs? Could I sneak in a level of Paragnostic Apostle, for example? Alternatively, is something like Stargazer out for being Pulura-specific, or could it be converted to FR (but even if it were, would it be specific to some other deity, perhaps)? Not a big deal, I'm just sad that I can't enter Heartwarder at L6.
• Could I purchase a modified special weapon? In particular I'm thinking the Sadist's Lash, but wounding is both mechanically terrible and thematically inappropriate; I'd rather have a "perfectly decent person's lash" that just has the touch spell ability but is only a +1 weapon. Can I knock off wounding and save 16k? Or, could I at least swap it for some other special properties? Spell-Storing for example would be way more useful.
• Presumably a bit of reflavouring is OK, e.g. taking Sacred Tattoo but saying maybe it's a mark of Sune? (Compared with Luck of Heroes + Fate's Favoured this doesn't seem too cheesy)

Thanks!

EDIT: Oh, some things I forgot!

• I wondered if Fury's Fall might be enough to make using a whip viable, but James Jacobs has said that it doesn't work with Weapon Finesse. So far as I can tell, this isn't an actual rule (untyped bonuses stack, and the thing about stats not stacking seems to be a weird fever dream he had) but a lot of DMs go with it so I wanted to ask if it works here or not.
• Since we rolled stats and got some odd numbers, would you allow the purchase of odd-valued stat-boosting items, e.g. a Belt of Dex +1 (for 1k) or +3 (for 9k) rather than having to buy +2 or +4 items?

Edited November 19, 2023 by TheFred (see edit history)

[Kylia Quilor]

On 11/14/2023 at 6:18 PM, TheFred said:

Notes

---

I was originally going to go with a more classic half-elf, probably female Heartwarder; in PF Half-Elves can swap their Skill Focus for EWP and they're explicitly called out as being amongst Sune's worshippers in Faiths and Pantheons. I figured that would be cliched and boring, however, and why not try something different and make a dashing half-orc?

I'm still working on exactly how Tovam came to be in Cormanthyr. He grew up in the rough part of a big city (I'm thinking Waterdeep but it could be anywhere, really) but with access to Teleport, he could have started anywhere and still found his way here. The Church is probably quite happy to see Cormanthyr rebuilt, particularly if this means the restoration of any architecturally-beautiful buildings or the recovery of fine works of art, but Tovam is probably also quite content simply taking a job for money as he can spread love and joy wherever he goes anyway.

Looks fine.
 

On 11/18/2023 at 11:55 AM, TheFred said:

• Witches can learn spells by burning scrolls or by swapping with other Witches. Would I just pay another Witch the same fee that a Wizard would pay for copying a spell, or do I actually have to buy (much more expensive) scrolls? Sadly I think in PF you get no automatic spells when you PrC out.
•  

Same fee, if you can find a witch that knows it and will let you copy it.

On 11/18/2023 at 11:55 AM, TheFred said:

• The L6 Seducer Witch ability sucks so I looking for something else to take. Are you open to non-FR-specific PrCs? Could I sneak in a level of Paragnostic Apostle, for example? Alternatively, is something like Stargazer out for being Pulura-specific, or could it be converted to FR (but even if it were, would it be specific to some other deity, perhaps)? Not a big deal, I'm just sad that I can't enter Heartwarder at L6.
•  

Willing to hear out any 3.5e material on a case by case basis. What source is the Paragnostic Apostle from? I'm fine with uncoupling Stargazer from Pulura, but it does seem thematically linked to *stars*, which feels more Selune-y, then Sune-ish.

On 11/18/2023 at 11:55 AM, TheFred said:

• Could I purchase a modified special weapon? In particular I'm thinking the Sadist's Lash, but wounding is both mechanically terrible and thematically inappropriate; I'd rather have a "perfectly decent person's lash" that just has the touch spell ability but is only a +1 weapon. Can I knock off wounding and save 16k? Or, could I at least swap it for some other special properties? Spell-Storing for example would be way more useful.
•  

Yeah, I guess you could knock off the wounding, though I'm not sure 16k is really fair to knock off, though I can see where you got that number . I think I'd rather you swap it out for another +2 weapon property (or two +1 weapon properties), just because that would be simpler.

On 11/18/2023 at 11:55 AM, TheFred said:

• Presumably a bit of reflavouring is OK, e.g. taking Sacred Tattoo but saying maybe it's a mark of Sune? (Compared with Luck of Heroes + Fate's Favoured this doesn't seem too cheesy)

 

Go for it.

On 11/18/2023 at 11:55 AM, TheFred said:

• I wondered if Fury's Fall might be enough to make using a whip viable, but James Jacobs has said that it doesn't work with Weapon Finesse. So far as I can tell, this isn't an actual rule (untyped bonuses stack, and the thing about stats not stacking seems to be a weird fever dream he had) but a lot of DMs go with it so I wanted to ask if it works here or not.
•  

Pretty sure Elephant in the Room already covers that. *checks* Yup. Under EITR, a finesse weapon allows you to use Dex to CMB no matter what

 

On 11/18/2023 at 11:55 AM, TheFred said:

• Since we rolled stats and got some odd numbers, would you allow the purchase of odd-valued stat-boosting items, e.g. a Belt of Dex +1 (for 1k) or +3 (for 9k) rather than having to buy +2 or +4 items?

Nope. You'd do what every players does with odd numbers and eventually boost that with their every 4 level boost, or a Tome/Book/etc.

[TheFred]

For the purposes of character creation, can I assume that I successfully found one or more witches who would let me copy spells of up to fifth level? (I assume Tovam can find plenty of witches willing to let him take a close look at their spellcasting)

18 hours ago, Kylia Quilor said:

Willing to hear out any 3.5e material on a case by case basis. What source is the Paragnostic Apostle from? I'm fine with uncoupling Stargazer from Pulura, but it does seem thematically linked to *stars*, which feels more Selune-y, then Sune-ish.

Paragnosticc Apostle is from Complete Champion. You basically join a magic club who care about knowledge and stuff; it's not super strongly themed, though some of the abilities are quite appropriate I think.

Stargazer... yeah that was kinda my question, would you just want to switch the prereq to e.g. Selune. I was thinking the Newlyweds Sidereal Arcana would be on-theme but I wouldn't be taking a second level for some time anyway.

Doesn't really matter, I can just take Witch 6 and, well, it's no more dead than Sorcerer 6 anyway (and ups Hex DCs and stuff I guess?) it just sucks as a Seducer to have to swap a good Hex for a pretty-much-useless ability and makes me sad on principle. ☹️

18 hours ago, Kylia Quilor said:

Yeah, I guess you could knock off the wounding, though I'm not sure 16k is really fair to knock off, though I can see where you got that number . I think I'd rather you swap it out for another +2 weapon property (or two +1 weapon properties), just because that would be simpler.

I suppose that these sorts of properties are often cheap and perhaps that's because they are "gated" behind having to pay for the rest of it too... but on the other hand, they're a pretty limited pair of abilities, the debuff thing that everyone will save against and the touch attacks thing which is really cool and useful... except it's enchantment spells only, so this mostly just means Touch of Idiocy.

I can go with a different +3 whip I guess... eh, the more I think about it, the more it seems that it's just not worth spending loads of gp on a melee weapon full stop (for a full caster), but I guess I can have a think about that.

18 hours ago, Kylia Quilor said:

Pretty sure Elephant in the Room already covers that. *checks* Yup. Under EITR, a finesse weapon allows you to use Dex to CMB no matter what

Weapon Finesse lets you replace your Str with your Dex. Fury's Fall, though, gives you a bonus to your CMB. Just, some people rule that these don't work together because you shouldn't (they say) get a bonus to your CMB equal to your Dex bonus if you already use your Dex for your attack rolls. So far as I can tell, by the rules as written they do work together, but I figured it's worth checking.

Again, I'm not sure it's actually worth my while because even Deft Manoeuvres + Fury's Fall still probably doesn't give me a very good CMB (it's only a +3 at this point anyway) and that's two feats burned, just wondering if it's even an option. Maybe I could cast Cat's Grace on myself or something, I dunno.

[Kylia Quilor]

4 hours ago, TheFred said:

For the purposes of character creation, can I assume that I successfully found one or more witches who would let me copy spells of up to fifth level? (I assume Tovam can find plenty of witches willing to let him take a close look at their spellcasting)

22 hours ago, Kylia Quilor said:

As long as you're willing to spend the money, yes.

4 hours ago, TheFred said:

Paragnosticc Apostle is from Complete Champion. You basically join a magic club who care about knowledge and stuff; it's not super strongly themed, though some of the abilities are quite appropriate I think.

 

It looks fine to me. Doesn't seem to be underpowered by PF terms (as too many 3.5 prestige classes are)

4 hours ago, TheFred said:

I can go with a different +3 whip I guess... eh, the more I think about it, the more it seems that it's just not worth spending loads of gp on a melee weapon full stop (for a full caster), but I guess I can have a think about that.

Fair enough

4 hours ago, TheFred said:

Weapon Finesse lets you replace your Str with your Dex. Fury's Fall, though, gives you a bonus to your CMB. Just, some people rule that these don't work together because you shouldn't (they say) get a bonus to your CMB equal to your Dex bonus if you already use your Dex for your attack rolls. So far as I can tell, by the rules as written they do work together, but I figured it's worth checking.

 

I guess if we were adapting Fury's Fall to EITR, it would let you add your Strength *and* Dex.

[TheFred]

19 hours ago, Kylia Quilor said:

I guess if we were adapting Fury's Fall to EITR, it would let you add your Strength *and* Dex.

But it doesn't work if you're finesse-ing? Eh, doesn't matter so much anyway, it was just a random thought - I wanted to find a use for the whip just to be on-theme Sune-wise, that's all. 🙂

19 hours ago, Kylia Quilor said:

It looks fine to me. Doesn't seem to be underpowered by PF terms (as too many 3.5 prestige classes are)

Eh, 3.5 just has a lot of of PrCs, and they vary a lot. A lot of 3.5 PrCs are way better than most PF PrCs, but I guess people tend to forget the very many underpowered chaff ones. (I didn't ask for Incantatrix on purpose 😃)

I don't think PF changes the equation a huge amount - Paizo clearly hate PrCs and want people to go 1-20 in their base class for some reason and so now you lose out on favoured class bonuses (and, in the case of Wizards/Witches, your free spells each level, because Reasons) which I think mostly just feels bad, and also I guess more base classes get more class features now - by PrCing out I'm losing Hex progression here, for example, which is quite a big deal.

Edited November 21, 2023 by TheFred (see edit history)

[Kylia Quilor]

21 hours ago, TheFred said:

But it doesn't work if you're finesse-ing?

It would, because Finessing is always happening.

[TheFred]

I mean, as in, can you add your Dex again even why you're finessing? (Again, I see no reason why not, though apparently Paizo disagree 🤷‍♂️)

I'm not sure it matters; even if I can, that's two feats to do badly something that isn't even that great by this point, so I'm probably just better off with, like, Extra Hex or something, I dunno.

[Kylia Quilor]

You're not adding it again. You're just doing Str *and* Dex with the CMB

[TheFred]

OK, so, my CMB is by BAB plus my Dex mod (when I'm using a finesse weapon - of course I could choose to use Str, but I won't because that's worse). Fury's Fall lets me add my Dex bonus to my CMB. That means my CMB should now be BAB + Dex mod + Dex mod? The only way I would get my Str in there would be if I chose to use Str instead of Dex in the first place (i.e. not finessing), which I would only do if I weren't allowed to add my Dex mod twice because of, say, some houserule saying you can't do that (hence my confusion).

[Kylia Quilor]

4 minutes ago, TheFred said:

OK, so, my CMB is by BAB plus my Dex mod (when I'm using a finesse weapon - of course I could choose to use Str, but I won't because that's worse). Fury's Fall lets me add my Dex bonus to my CMB. That means my CMB should now be BAB + Dex mod + Dex mod? The only way I would get my Str in there would be if I chose to use Str instead of Dex in the first place (i.e. not finessing), which I would only do if I weren't allowed to add my Dex mod twice because of, say, some houserule saying you can't do that (hence my confusion).

No.

I said that since EITR lets Dex apply to CMB with Finesse weapons without even needing a feat in certain cases.

Agile Combatant (Combat) You’ve learned to use your quickness in place of brute force when performing combat maneuvers.
Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus (see Combat) instead of your Strength bonus. Normal: You add your Strength bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus.
Special: With or without this feat, when you are using a finesse weapon, you may use your Dexterity bonus in place of your Strength bonus when attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver. This feat allows you to add your Dexterity bonus in place of your Strength bonus when attempting a bull rush, grapple, hamstring, or overrun maneuver.

If you take Fury's fall, then since it normally allows you to add Dex when you'd be using strength, it would, in cases where you're already adding Dex, allow you to use Dex and Str.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Kylia Quilor (see edit history)

[TheFred]

Outside of EitR, though, you can still use Dex for your CMB, either with Agile Combatant or with Weapon Finesse. EitR rules just give you Weapon Finesse for free, basically.

If you don't want it to work, no big deal. It would only be any use for me if I could pump my Dex a bit anyway (otherwise just take Greater Trip? Or, honestly, something actually useful)... I was just casting about for ideas that might be at least semi-viable, but I think that whipping and tripping is not one of them.