What are your games about?

[DarkisNotEvil]

12 minutes ago, hakootoko said:

I think there are more options than holding NPCs for hostage, and I expect you'll agree. NPCs can be combat allies, adventure hooks, or can be used for character growth in new ways. Even in cases of them being held hostage, it doesn't necessarily mean going against the party PvP-style; it could mean the whole party has to change course because of the hostage.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen a situation where a PC has been used as a hostage or source of leverage on an NPC by one of their mutual enemies. I think that could make for good material on account of it making the NPC more than a yes-man or resource for the PC to tap into, and serves to remind them that their relationships with NPCs are a real two-way affair (perhaps not literally). I actually have a concept for a villain that pushes these kinds of buttons.

I guess the problem is that makes a lot of stories 'unsatisfying' is that what the story is about ends up being the quest in question, so that motivation ends when the subject of the quest does. That's perfectly reasonable, but it doesn't inherently dig at 'human condition' factors unless the adventure is specifically designed around it (and #3 is usually hit on for this as it's more general than the other two and most people don't want to play premades).

[Vladim]

7 hours ago, yxanthymir said:

(...) I don't think I enter deeply into any meaningful theme. It is a game after all and the purpose is to have fun, don't matter the setting or the type of the game, not teach or learn a lesson about any matter.

It is the group as a whole that will decide if they wish to pursue a particular theme.

I have heard this criticism before, but in my opinion structuring a game so that it is "about" something is different from teaching a lesson; at best good narratives (and good art in general) is about raising interesting questions to engage with (e.g. philosophical ones) but not prescribing any clear answers. It's up to the players and the characters to find their answers; there should not be a single right one.

I understand that this may not be "fun" in the conventional sense, but (for me at least) it is interesting, and there's no reason in my opinion not to have the fun components (danger, excitement, uncertainty) along with the interesting, thought-provoking elements in a game.

But I agree with you on the last point-it's up to the players to decide what to engage with, and what to ignore.

3 hours ago, hakootoko said:

 

I don't mind at all!

I was trying to express three ways that literature touches on the 'human condition', only one of which was in danger of violating site rules.

1) Internal monologues, feelings, and suffering. The problem here is that roleplaying is usually group oriented, and these internal aspects are solitary. It wouldn't give the next person something they could respond to.

2) Family relationships. This could be included, but in my experience it isn't. Even when one or more players have included family members that the GM could use, the GM hasn't. Not that I'm blaming anyone here. You can't make a GM include something, even if you take disadvantage points for it.

3) Social and political problems. This is the part I see as Worldly Talk. I regret that I can't be more specific without violating site rules.

That's interesting; I found that #1 happens a lot in PbP games, sometimes to the extent that it can become indulgent or self-gratuitous. But I've also seen it done in a good way. I am personally very fond of introspective games, and I love reading the PCs' thoughts. It helps a ton with characterization, too.

As for #3, I am also kind of with DarkisNotEvil on this one. I am thinking about classical literature as an example. Yes, it engages with Worldly Talk issues at times, but for older books these are 100-200 years outdated. Despite this, the works still resonate today; it's clear to me that this is because of the poignant points about the human condition, which exist almost independently of the Worldly Talk issues discussed (and can be discussed under a broad set of different contexts).

[yxanthymir]

46 minutes ago, Vladim said:

I have heard this criticism before, but in my opinion structuring a game so that it is "about" something is different from teaching a lesson; at best good narratives (and good art in general) is about raising interesting questions to engage with (e.g. philosophical ones) but not prescribing any clear answers. It's up to the players and the characters to find their answers; there should not be a single right one.

I understand that this may not be "fun" in the conventional sense, but (for me at least) it is interesting, and there's no reason in my opinion not to have the fun components (danger, excitement, uncertainty) along with the interesting, thought-provoking elements in a game.

But I agree with you on the last point-it's up to the players to decide what to engage with, and what to ignore.

And I agree with you. Good narratives have something that makes them interesting, and that could be done in numerous ways. One of them is presenting an interesting question to engage. But as I said that is not main purpose of the game, it is to present an adventure that people will have fun and maybe present some interesting themes to engage, but not focus on any particular theme. It is up to the group to pursue that avenue if they wish for it.

So I believe we are more or less presenting the same thing, but from two different angles. 

[Vladim]

Probably yes in broader terms. I may disagree somewhat with the "interesting question" not being the main purpose of the game. I think it could be, if done well, but of course I've never seen it done well (and I think my own feeble attempts have not been particularly successful). Maybe that's an argument to be used for your point 🙂

But I don't mind some disagreement. Games are diverse and people play for all sorts of reasons. That's part of the beauty of the hobby. I'm no exception either-sometimes I play because of a clever system, or an interesting-looking setting or characters, even in the absence of a clear theme. But I find these discussions illuminating, and already other people's posts here have given me useful information & good perspectives.

[cailano]

This thread makes me wonder about emergent storytelling. I know I've had at least one game where a strong theme emerged mid-campaign and I thought added a lot of depth to the story. Is there a way GMs can nurture that sort of thing?

[Vladim]

14 minutes ago, cailano said:

This thread makes me wonder about emergent storytelling. I know I've had at least one game where a strong theme emerged mid-campaign and I thought added a lot of depth to the story. Is there a way GMs can nurture that sort of thing?

Yes, I've had good experiences with Ironsworn (and I think Mythic GM emulator does the same though I have not tried it). No predetermined plot; narrative just emerges from the interaction of character actions, abilities, luck and Oracle rolls.

[GaryD20]

1 hour ago, cailano said:

This thread makes me wonder about emergent storytelling. I know I've had at least one game where a strong theme emerged mid-campaign and I thought added a lot of depth to the story. Is there a way GMs can nurture that sort of thing?

I just run a truly open sandbox. I let players go anywhere and do anything they want. Even if it's something I haven't planned for. I encourage it. And then I just run the type of game the players are dictating. Maybe not the best thing in a PbP game, but if you get the right group of players that helps a bunch. There's other tricks I've done to keep a game/campaign going. But, yeah, I love me a wide open sandbox.

[Actana]

Emergent storytelling and themes are not mutually exclusive. Even beyond themes that emerge naturally, the system itself can direct games to be about certain things. Take, say, Masks for example. Masks is a game about the teenage experience through the lens of being a superhero. Those themes, along with the ones you get when you pick your playbooks, will shine through regardless of what you do in the game (assuming you play the game as intended - if you aren't, why are you using Masks to begin with?).

Other games certainly have fewer inherent themes, but personally I rather like games which have a strong sense of thematic direction. Great American Novel, my beloved.

[Vladim]

+1 for games with a clear and strong thematic direction.

[DarkisNotEvil]

16 hours ago, cailano said:

This thread makes me wonder about emergent storytelling. I know I've had at least one game where a strong theme emerged mid-campaign and I thought added a lot of depth to the story. Is there a way GMs can nurture that sort of thing?

When all of the players simultaneously and spontaneously engage with something or someone, find out what exactly about that particular thing causes them to engage. Is a particular individual's resolve to not be hopeless when they're helpless endearing to the party? Is there a specific foe they want to defeat for reasons other than convenience or because they're obligated to, because they all oppose the enemy on an ideological or personal level? Heck, does the party spend downtime cultivating a work of art as a group in order to leave behind a shared legacy? That's a strong theme, and keep an eye out for focus points like that. People like to emphasize the things that distinguish themselves from others, but it's just as important to lend focus to the things that connect us.

Edited April 5, 2023 by DarkisNotEvil (see edit history)

[cailano]

2 hours ago, DarkisNotEvil said:

... People like to emphasize the things that distinguish themselves from others, but it's just as important to lend focus to the things that connect us.

Love this. A GM who allows their players to do the former while simultaneously cultivating a theme that does the latter is taking their craft to the next level.

[Actana]

It's also one thing to have some things come into the narrative organically, and a whole other thing to be able to, as a group, capitalize on it to really make the theme shine. Most often any emergent themes are fairly surface level, and it takes a lot of communal understanding (or just explicit discussion) to efficiently use them.

[DarkisNotEvil]

24 minutes ago, Actana said:

It's also one thing to have some things come into the narrative organically, and a whole other thing to be able to, as a group, capitalize on it to really make the theme shine. Most often any emergent themes are fairly surface level, and it takes a lot of communal understanding (or just explicit discussion) to efficiently use them.

So this doesn't seem to be something that can be fixed by methods other than the ones you described, but a DM can prepare by making well-thought-out NPCs with their own motivations. A well-thought-out NPC WILL have opinions, and sometimes disagree with the party.

If a DM wants to emphasize a theme on the down-low, they can prep every major NPC with a hidden connection to the theme in question. If the theme of the story is meant to be "what is the best way to achieve freedom", for example, every NPC can be written with a given opinion on how they take steps to free themselves or enjoy their freedom. Some people see certain systems as essential to freedom, while some people seek to free themselves from any given system. If a theme is established spontaneously or deliberately, this kind of prep becomes essential to shoring up the focus on it.

Edited April 5, 2023 by DarkisNotEvil (see edit history)

[Actana]

1 hour ago, DarkisNotEvil said:

So this doesn't seem to be something that can be fixed by methods other than the ones you described, but a DM can prepare by making well-thought-out NPCs with their own motivations. A well-thought-out NPC WILL have opinions, and sometimes disagree with the party.

If a DM wants to emphasize a theme on the down-low, they can prep every major NPC with a hidden connection to the theme in question. If the theme of the story is meant to be "what is the best way to achieve freedom", for example, every NPC can be written with a given opinion on how they take steps to free themselves or enjoy their freedom. Some people see certain systems as essential to freedom, while some people seek to free themselves from any given system. If a theme is established spontaneously or deliberately, this kind of prep becomes essential to shoring up the focus on it.

That does then pose the next question of: "but what if the players don't engage?" If the GM is the only one who really sees it, then is that enough for a theme to exist? There's no guarantee that the players will see the themes, let alone participate in furthering their exploration. Preparation helps, but it guarantees results for only so far.

Ultimately, however, RPGs are a collaborative game of communication, so to me "talk about it" isn't so much of a negative as basically a requirement to get the most out of a game.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Actana (see edit history)

[cailano]

1 hour ago, Actana said:

That does then pose the next question of: "but what if the players don't engage?" If the GM is the only one who really sees it, then is that enough for a theme to exist? There's no guarantee that the players will see the themes, let alone participate in furthering their exploration. Preparation helps, but it guarantees results for only so far.

Ultimately, however, RPGs are a collaborative game of communication, so to me "talk about it" isn't so much of a negative as basically a requirement to get the most out of a game.

I think I'd just let the players engage or not. I'm not sure having an OOC discussion would help anything if the group doesn't care organically. It would be like opening a chapter of a book and finding a note from the author to the effect of "In this chapter, I would like to draw your attention to the theme of darkness as it pertains to the human soul. You will notice that I use literal dark as a metaphor."