Part One: The Ruined Keep

[cailano]

There we were, at the beginning of our grand adventure with a brand new party.

There were multiple ways into the Ruined Keep. If you'd explored around the back, you would have likely discovered a sinkhole and/or an entrance into the tomb of the second of the two chaos lords: Molan's brother, Felan. There was some treasure to be had in there, but also some traps and hazards.

There was also a sinkhole that allowed entry directly into the cavern of the Starless Sea, but the cavern ceiling was so high that you would have needed hundreds of feet of rope to make that entrance work.

You guys chose the most obvious way, which was up the Devil's Causeway. It was a straightforward way in, but there were two big dangers: the vine horrors and the Gatehouse.

The vine horrors had the potential to cause a lot more damage than they did. In fact, a lot of people who've played this adventure complain about them being an unfair encounter for zero-level characters. You guys handled them pretty easily, though.

The Gateway had the trapped portcullis. That was going to be triggered by the beastman on top of the Gatehouse to drop on the last row of PCs passing beneath. I thought there was a good chance it would kill both the cows. Instead, Obraun showed himself while half of you were still outside the walls. That could have been ugly because once the portcullis dropped, your group would have had a hard time lifting it again. Luckily, Thugnar managed to brace it. Otherwise, your group would have been cut in half, and many of you would have had to find another way into the Keep.

Inside the Keep, there were a few different locations to explore, such as the Well, the Charnel Ruins, and the Tower of the Beastmen. There were also some hidden locations and another way into Felan's tomb.

The Well was a trap, pure and simple. It was a gateway into pure Chaos, and that was how some of the kidnapped villagers were turned into beastmen. That's why the others you found in the Tower of the Beastmen were chained up and hanging there. They were all prepped for being suspended into the Well for a day or so.

Just looking into the Well could potentially cause character death, but you all made your saves. If any of you had tried to rappel down there, the results would have been... not good. Here's some text from the module: "Very little good can come from toying with the Well, but heroes are nothing if not fools."

I'm telling you, guys, this module was merciless.

The Charnel Ruins had a ton of loot, but you missed most of it. There were two more chain shirts lying in the ashes if you'd dug around, and another weapon. The toad fountain had some gems in it, too. The most important treasure was the censer and the incense that you'd need to deal with the Chaos Leviathan later. You left the censer but grabbed the incense.

And, of course, the Tower of the Beastmen was a tough fight where we saw our first PC deaths. There was that nasty rot grub in the furs, too, but you avoided it. I really liked the variety of hazards that were in this module.

Leaving the treasure behind was an interesting choice. Kind of logical, but of course, you never came back to get it...

Finally, you found the stairs down, and the adventure got a whole lot weirder. We'll talk about that in Part Two!
 

[Excior]

Yeah I figured we would come back out the same way we came in so we would pick up the chest as we went out. 

[Dixi]

There was an RP moment here. We were saving villagers, right? So, slow searching and turning every stone in obviously villager-less places did not make much sense. Particularly in Charnel Ruins. Why would we vacuum-clean the floor to check if there is something under the ashes? Secret doors that could lead somewhere - this is another matter, they could lead to our target and that we searched.

Well, now we are not in a hurry and can properly explore!

[Malkavian Grin]

Honestly, playing this scenario from the perspective of some mud-ridden, know-nothing peasant, I also can't see why we'd think to sweep through the ashes for more armor. In my mind I figured there'd be a trap there, not a treasure.

As far as the Charnel Ruins, Tabby was a little freaked out by the statue. Then when a living ooze attacked, I as a player didn't really want to push into there to explore. It felt like red herring territory to my lizard brain.

Mostly, I'm upset we missed that whole side-tomb (Felan)! That sounds like it would have been awesome to explore.

24 minutes ago, Dixi said:

Well, now we are not in a hurry and can properly explore!

Maybe. Never say never. 😉

[Tecumseh]

I've been thinking about this extensively the last few days as I reflected on DCC and its lethality.

With the caveat that I haven't read the module, I feel like the risk-reward ratio is off in Sailors on the Starless Sea. There are so many traps and hidden dangers that it actively discourages exploration. 

Take the charnel ruins for example:

• "...it is obvious that this chapel was dedicated to dark gods."
• "The bones are somehow still warm, and the scent of charred flesh and burned incense lingers in the air."
• "A fountain at the head of the chapel depicts a squat, demonic toad. A foul, black ichor seeps from the toad's mouth and pools in a basin seated at the foot of the fountain."

Everything in the description screams death and destruction. Bones that are still warm implies that the threat is active/recent. Same goes for the scent of charred flesh. Ichor dripping from the toad's mouth also suggests an active evil for which we, as level-0 fodder, have no counter. It's like a bright neon light flashing "TRAP!" Now in this case maybe it wasn't a trap, but I would have been astounded if anyone had decided to sweep for ashes.

This gets to a bigger issue I have with DCC. I honestly don't mind the lethality at level-0; to me it's a feature instead of a flaw. But my opinion is that DCC needs to take its foot off the gas after level 1. It should still be lethal, but it should dial it down from a 10 (which is a necessary component of the funnel) to a 7 or something more sustainable. 

Case in point, I'm in a different game of DCC where - having joined late - I have a party of level 0 redshirts and everyone else is level 1 or 2. Literally nobody else wants to do anything because they are so terrified of the consequences, especially when it's a leveled character at stake. When the module (or the system) gets to the point where it has petrified players into inaction then the game has stopped being fun and is thus no longer a game.

[cailano]

It's something to think about! You're not the first person I've heard say it. Still, I hope you guys are having fun.

I do try to use description to let you guys know when danger is about. To be fair, the fountain WAS a trap.

If you go back and read the IC thread, I'm confident that you won't find many instances of traps out of nowhere. The Well was probably the least foreshadowed, but even that one got a little bit.

But DCC keeps the danger level high, I'm not denying it.

 

[Excior]

17 hours ago, Tecumseh said:

I've been thinking about this extensively the last few days as I reflected on DCC and its lethality.

With the caveat that I haven't read the module, I feel like the risk-reward ratio is off in Sailors on the Starless Sea. There are so many traps and hidden dangers that it actively discourages exploration. 

Take the charnel ruins for example:

• "...it is obvious that this chapel was dedicated to dark gods."
• "The bones are somehow still warm, and the scent of charred flesh and burned incense lingers in the air."
• "A fountain at the head of the chapel depicts a squat, demonic toad. A foul, black ichor seeps from the toad's mouth and pools in a basin seated at the foot of the fountain."

Everything in the description screams death and destruction. Bones that are still warm implies that the threat is active/recent. Same goes for the scent of charred flesh. Ichor dripping from the toad's mouth also suggests an active evil for which we, as level-0 fodder, have no counter. It's like a bright neon light flashing "TRAP!" Now in this case maybe it wasn't a trap, but I would have been astounded if anyone had decided to sweep for ashes.

This gets to a bigger issue I have with DCC. I honestly don't mind the lethality at level-0; to me it's a feature instead of a flaw. But my opinion is that DCC needs to take its foot off the gas after level 1. It should still be lethal, but it should dial it down from a 10 (which is a necessary component of the funnel) to a 7 or something more sustainable. 

Case in point, I'm in a different game of DCC where - having joined late - I have a party of level 0 redshirts and everyone else is level 1 or 2. Literally nobody else wants to do anything because they are so terrified of the consequences, especially when it's a leveled character at stake. When the module (or the system) gets to the point where it has petrified players into inaction then the game has stopped being fun and is thus no longer a game.

I think that is suppose to be the point of DCC its lethal big risk vs big reward. those plyers in the other game your in may be use to some of the newer versions of D&D where each encounter is suppose to be balanced with the power level of  the party, not like back in the day when you could very well run up on a powerful monster beyond the players ability to defeat. back then you needed to know when it was time time avoid, or run from those encounters. 

[cailano]

10 hours ago, Excior said:

I think that is suppose to be the point of DCC its lethal big risk vs big reward. those plyers in the other game your in may be use to some of the newer versions of D&D where each encounter is suppose to be balanced with the power level of  the party, not like back in the day when you could very well run up on a powerful monster beyond the players ability to defeat. back then you needed to know when it was time time avoid, or run from those encounters. 

This is the way.

Honestly, I really like what I've seen of DCC adventures so far. The danger level is just crazy, the rewards are huge and meaningful (no sword +1s in these modules!), and there is just so much to explore.

DCC is a fun, exciting system that rewards play that is somehow both smart and daring. That's what they set out to do, and they delivered it.

My big question is about its viability as a long-term campaign system as opposed to something like Castles and Crusades. Eventually, it just seems like the dice are going to get you. It's kind of the ultimate push-your-luck RPG.

And the lethality does decrease a little as you go. I mean, just look at your characters at level one as opposed to at the beginning of the funnel. Your hit points have doubled or even tripled in some cases; you have more gear and access to magical healing and the bleeding-out rule. Can you still die? Absolutely. But the bad guys are going to have to work a little harder for it.


 

[Tecumseh]

I stand by all the previous points I made. If the game paralyzes the players into inaction due to the level of risk, then the risk/reward ratio is off. 

Now for my own part I freely admit that I've never played DCC past Level 0 so I have no idea how the threats scale. Our HP tripled, sure, but did the same thing happen for the monsters? Did their AC improve and their to-hit and damage bonuses improve to the point where things are just as lethal before? I don't know.

I also admit that I've never read any DCC modules so I don't know how they are written. I don't know if the Level 0 modules are deliberately lethal (moreso than usual) with the understanding that the funnel needs to be fed. But if that's a player's introduction to DCC then you can see how the players would easily carry that shellshocked mentality into Level 1, even if their characters are more competent and robust. For example, every time I see a roll for Saving Throw I assume that the consequence is death. That might be inaccurate, but that's my expectation coming out of the funnel.

I'm all about a dangerous world with consequences. "Harsh but fair" is fine with me, as long as things are actually fair. Maybe we're past the point where one bad roll dooms you, but - to cailano's point - it does just seem like a matter of time before the dice catch up to you.

[Malkavian Grin]

There's some fun to be had in being such minor, frail peasants. At the same time, it can be tiresome being in a constant state of fear that something will look at you wrong, and you die.

To Tecumseh's point: Both times in Sailors on the Starless Sea when I had a character act less-than-terrified and actually do something, BOTH CHARACTERS INSTANTLY DIED.

Eli died the moment I had him look at something "intriguing" (that pit with vine horror things).

Alphonse died the moment I went to claim my FIRST piece of loot.

I would like to know where the reward is? So far, all I've seen is that cowardice wins the day. And if every character is a coward, no one will find any treasure, and the party ends up underpowered, causing further cowardice and inaction.

Don't get me wrong: I LIKE DCC! But I feel like it breeds a "gambling" mindset which I personally abhor. (Gambling is absolutely stupid and I don't understand people that enjoy it, but that's another conversation).

[cailano]

I don't agree about cowardice winning the day at all. I think the day will go to the bold. Thugnar bracing the portcullis. Bernard holding the ramp against a horde of beastmen. Helge investigating that evil skull until she figured out what to do with it. Obraun stepping up and taming that Chaos Leviathan (which would have TPKd you if you'd done nothing.)

Tabitha standing shoulder to shoulder with her son unarmored and armed with a kitchen knife.

There were tons of courageous moments in that game. You shouldn't sell yourselves short.

Rewards:

You all leveled up

Got the flail

Got the armor

Got some gear

Got more coins than your characters have ever held before.

And some stuff you missed, but you're never going to find all the treasure.

And you're just getting started! All you've completed so far is a funnel. More awesome adventure to come.

A group of 5E adventures isn't proven. They've faced an array of balanced encounters in nanny-dungeons perfectly manicured for their level. Whoop de doo.

A band of DCC adventurers has the thousand-yard stare. They've looked death in the face and smiled back. They've left friends behind. They've seen some scary s**t.

That's the idea, anyway.

 

[Dixi]

Let me preface everything by saying, we all do have fun, love the game, and love your DMing, cailano! It is not a complaint, simply an explanation for the character's actions.

If I get it right, the main idea of the game is indeed gambling, as Malkavian Grin is saying. Have no problem with it, just needed to set expectations correctly. As someone coming from DnD (and 5e of all of them), have to admit, it takes some effort to switch from "this is my precious character, my hero, on whose build I was working for the last two weeks" to "roll four randos, play until all dead, roll four others". From chosen one to disposable. Very different type of game. Now I know I can play both.

My only gripe is the incentive, motivation (again, coming from DnD side). If we play high risk - high reward it would be easier to justify risk when reward is known. Lick cheese in an obvious mouse trap. In the case of ashes in Charnel Ruins we only saw - yes, an absolutely well-described trap, but no visible (or expected!) reward, hence, no reasons for the risk.

[Shocker]

I largely enjoyed the game, it was exciting,  but I’m a bit with Malkavian Grin. Bernard is primarily alive, because he grabbed the one visible chain mail. After that he was just reacting killing what came his way. The one tine he went for discovering in a chest he was to,doff and told to help with the prisoners. Something that might have saved him from those poisonous furs. 
 

Seeing so many going down on the first blow, makes one cautious and stick the neck out as little as possible. The danger of DCC certainly adds spice to things, but it cuts down sharply on any desire the explore beyond the absolute minimum. 

[cailano]

9 hours ago, Dixi said:

Let me preface everything by saying, we all do have fun, love the game, and love your DMing, cailano!

 

Thanks, Dixi! I've been having fun, too.