Kaida Reombath Attor, "The Little Dragon of Quiet Poison" and the "Foul Shadow of Baator"

[Ryfte]

Edited my little table based on your response... I think that's what it is, right?

If someone gets some other method of flight its not restricted by that ruling. Of course you're the DM and I don't expect you'd allow that, so... 😄

[Ryfte]

@Michael 

Since imp poison is based on racial HD, something I should have realized initially, I'm just going with a straight imp and taking follow up racial hd to meet the ECL requirement. Adding anything to the race reduces that aspect of the character too much. Along with that, to keep scaling the poison, I'll end up just filling that entire side with racial hit dice as well to 16 Imp HD (at 20th level).

Now, baatezu (devil's) can swap SLA's based on a chart in Fiendish Codex 2 page 108 and you're allowing tongues (if possessed) to be replaced by a non-combat equivalent. An imp is a devil but technically not a baatezu despite all other devils having that subtype, which makes no sense to me of course. Technically I don't think you can actually be a devil unless you have that subtype. This is the same thing as the demon being the subtype tanar'ri which likewise the quasit (the demon equivalent of the imp) doesn't have either.

1. I'd like to grant them the subtype of baatezu if possible so they technically become actual devils. Likewise I would suggest that quasits be granted their actual demon subtypes. This would raise their power level in the form of better resistances / immunities to the point they could actually live in the planes they're supposed to. Without these changes they couldn't actually survive where they're supposed to live! Seems like a major oversight when they weren't given the subtypes, heh. The Lemure, the lowliest of devils, that are actually mindless, still have the correct subtype, unlike the imp.

2. Regardless of that the imp normally gets the ability to use commune 1/week. Would you allow me to replace that with an imp only special ability which is a very modified version of the trait removal spell from Serpent Kingdoms pg 158?

Imp SQ

Your sting attack ignores a creatures poison immunity, if they have any. This also applies to creatures normally immune to poison due to their type (such as oozes, constructs, and undead) as the poison spreads itself through their bodies instead of actually relying on their own circulatory system to do so and having its full effect .

The save would still be there to negate the effect as normal, it would simply have a chance to work against normally immune creatures. This would be gained at 7th level, the imps fully developed level, as their capstone ability.

3. I'd like to swap Detect Magic for Silence.

4. Suggestion, normally a 3rd level spell, usable 1/day for Disguise Self, a 1st level spell, usable as a lesser ability (i.e. 1/day at 2nd, 3/day at 4th, and at will at 6th).

Thank you ahead of time, regardless of answers! Being a DM is always a lot of work! 😄

Edit:

I'm looking at ways of using her tail sting as her primary attack. Not adding a bunch of attacks to her normal attack sequence or anything bent like that. Since 3.5 was always quite convoluted and spaghetti string like when it came to natural attacks vs iterative attacks there was never an actual solution.

Pathfinder had this:

Feral Combat Training (feat)

You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.

Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.

If I were to go with monk as a class pick would you allow this? There was a dragon magazine that had a feat which allowed you to add your natural attack damage to a claw or slam attack but that's not really the same thing.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Ryfte (see edit history)

[Ryfte]

@Michael

Regardless of above answers / feedback the character is done. I put the final character app as post 1 and the monster class (i.e. imp) as post 2. The link to the sheet (also done) is in the upper right corner of the character app labeled "mw sheet" for quick access.

If there's no way to use her tail as planned I'll simply be switching the class to a straight up warlock (keeping things very simple). That will take all of 5 minutes, lol.

[Michael]

All of those are fine with me except the det mag swap for silence. You might also like to consider swordsage over monk.

[Michael]

Having said that I'd allow the silence if it was delivered via the sting instead of poison (which is to say you can choose to use it, not a permanent swap). Would still allow a save, and would only affect the creature stung (no radius).

I think some kind of in game "special" progression might be possible where other effects are sting delivered.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Michael (see edit history)

[Ryfte]

1 hour ago, Michael said:

All of those are fine with me except the det mag swap for silence. You might also like to consider swordsage over monk.

I considered swordsage to be honest but they don't get flurry which is what the feat that allows for the natural attacks to be substituted for the flurry attacks. If you're okay with iterative attacks being used via the same feat instead I'd happily grab swordsage instead, lol. Obviously with the understanding that the sting can't be used in a natural weapon attack if its being used in an iterative, just as if it were a manufactured weapon.

Honestly I don't know why WotC didn't just make that the rule; you can use a natural weapon as if it were a manufactured weapon, for iterative attacks, but it isn't available for any natural attack sequences in that same round. It would have really helped alleviate a LOT of the funky rules around them. Regardless I'm willing to pay the "feat" tax needed to do so instead, lol. Their logic of if you hold a dagger in your hand you can strike with it repeatedly once your BAB is +6 or higher but if you have claws on that hand and want to claw your opponent instead you can only attack with them once. WTF is that about? 😉

1 hour ago, Michael said:

Having said that I'd allow the silence if it was delivered via the sting instead of poison (which is to say you can choose to use it, not a permanent swap). Would still allow a save, and would only affect the creature stung (no radius).

I think some kind of in game "special" progression might be possible where other effects are sting delivered.

I'd be good with that actually. I want to broaden out the options for the sting as she advances and that is exactly the sort of thing I'd be looking at doing!

Edited May 23, 2023 by Ryfte (see edit history)

[Ryfte]

@Michael 

Do you allow the Swordsage adaptation that loses the light armor proficiency but gains Improved Unarmed Strike and the unarmed strike damage progression? Also, see above, lol. The whole point of monk is to get flurry so that, along with the Feral Combat Training feat, she can get Flurry of Blows iterative attacks with her tail sting. Getting the Improved Unarmed Strike feat as a bonus feat helps as well, but the Swordsage adaptation would get that as well. So if you allowed the tail sting to simply make normal iterative attacks (eventually) with the FCT feat then of course I'd switch her over to the Swordsage.

I might even inquire if you'd go for the full arcane adaptation and work with you on acceptable spells for that. It could mesh very well with her tail stings, incorporating them into using her sting for the physical delivery or for an evocation such as launching magical missiles (as a maneuver) from her stinger. A "magic fang" stance that enhances the stinger, tail slap on the ground to summon a magic circle against good, etc. 😉

Edited May 23, 2023 by Ryfte (see edit history)

[TheFred]

Just sticking my nose in to offer that, whilst Swordsages don't get real Flurry, you can snag Flashing Sun (which at the base level functions the same, it's just only 1/encounter) at L3, and that works by default with any (melee) weapon. And, indeed, strikes in general work with tail sting attacks, so certainly in terms of ease of use and not needing any homebrew or anything, Swordsage potentially just works better than Monk for a tail-focused character. (I mean, most would say Swordsage is better in general, but there are specific things that you can optimise about Monk that you don't really see elsewhere... tail attacks aren't one of them, though)

I guess you could also look at, like... Whirling Frenzy Barbarian? There are a couple of ways to get bonus attacks with a tail, anyway.

You could also aim for Shou Disciple. It's a 3.0 class so needs some mild DM-approved eyeballing, but it lets you flurry with any light (and then any) melee weapons (it's not 100% clear whether it grants flurry if you don't already have it but I would argue it should, in which case you don't need to take any Monk at all, just the prereq feats). Does come in a bit later, but it's fairly solid as a nonmagical Monk-like PrC, certainly as far as Monk PrCs go.

[Ryfte]

3 hours ago, TheFred said:

Just sticking my nose in to offer that, whilst Swordsages don't get real Flurry, you can snag Flashing Sun (which at the base level functions the same, it's just only 1/encounter) at L3, and that works by default with any (melee) weapon. And, indeed, strikes in general work with tail sting attacks, so certainly in terms of ease of use and not needing any homebrew or anything, Swordsage potentially just works better than Monk for a tail-focused character. (I mean, most would say Swordsage is better in general, but there are specific things that you can optimise about Monk that you don't really see elsewhere... tail attacks aren't one of them, though)

I guess you could also look at, like... Whirling Frenzy Barbarian? There are a couple of ways to get bonus attacks with a tail, anyway.

You could also aim for Shou Disciple. It's a 3.0 class so needs some mild DM-approved eyeballing, but it lets you flurry with any light (and then any) melee weapons (it's not 100% clear whether it grants flurry if you don't already have it but I would argue it should, in which case you don't need to take any Monk at all, just the prereq feats). Does come in a bit later, but it's fairly solid as a nonmagical Monk-like PrC, certainly as far as Monk PrCs go.

Yeah, the thing about using the Feral Combat Training route as a solution is that any discipline from ToB that has unarmed strike listed as one of its favored weapons can then have her tail sting used with it instead. That means any maneuver that could be used with a discipline weapon would apply at that point, not just one maneuver. The other aspect of the flurry itself is that sure, right now its +1 attack for an iterative of 2 but if we play to higher levels she'd be looking at the full flurry iterative with a full round attack. I'd suggest that the Tiger Claw discipline could work similarly but the truth is that the discipline really relies on dual wielding while I'm actually looking at doing the opposite; focusing specifically on a single weapon, and a natural one at that.

But thanks for the suggestions The Fred! WF Barb is always good for that extra attack and shou disciple would actually work at 3rd since natural attacks are considered light melee weapons. That begs the question, 3 class levels or 3 feats, lol. Monk by itself grants one of the 3 feats as a given, i.e. improved unarmed strike, and the flurry progression. I don't think swordsage grants a flurry progression at all. So unless I lock into monk or monk prestige classes (or any class that continues FoB) then it wouldn't be worth it mechanically.

On the other hand if I grabbed a psionic class I could go the Tashalatora route and get the AC bonus, FoB, and unarmed damage equal to a monk of the same level without needing monk at all. Psychic Rogue would work nicely, fit the character quite well, etc. If I don't care about the sneak attack on that I could go with a Martial Psychic Rogue and get the fighter bonus feats, psychic rogue powers / psionics, and the rogue special abilities. Tacked on to that monk AC bonus, FoB, and unarmed damage progression.

So many options with 3.5, lol. Its the beauty and the curse all at the same time. 😄

[Michael]

I dont want to fiddle with swordsage in ways I havent seen so lets leave that bit as is.

[Ryfte]

On 5/23/2023 at 5:00 PM, Michael said:

I dont want to fiddle with swordsage in ways I havent seen so lets leave that bit as is.

No worries, thanks Michael!

Went with Swordsage for level 01. Planning on mixing monk / swordsage / related support for tail sting strikes.

@Michael Did you mean to say that the unarmed variant for the swordsage is okay but the arcane variant isn't, or neither are acceptable? I want to make sure I understand, lol.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Ryfte (see edit history)

[TheFred]

On 5/24/2023 at 12:44 AM, Ryfte said:

Yeah, the thing about using the Feral Combat Training route as a solution is that any discipline from ToB that has unarmed strike listed as one of its favored weapons can then have her tail sting used with it instead.

Feral Combat Training only applies to feats, unfortunately, so it wouldn't make a tail sting into a discipline weapon (thought it would let you use e.g. Snap Kick with it). And, arguably, you'd only get one or the other anyway; you need Flurry to take FCT but you only care about discipline weapons if you're a Swordsage (though maybe you're planning to multiclass). And, Swordsage offers standard-action single-attack strikes that work fine with any weapon as it is. Actually, discipline weapons don't matter that much for ToB anyway, though there are a few things for which they're a big deal (like Shadow Blade).

But, you're right, the big deal of FCT is letting you make iterative attacks with the weapon. Eberron actually has a lot of feats for making other weapons be Monk weapons, and they all just require Weapon Focus or whatever, which FCT is on a par with in terms of giving you flurry (and honestly they could just have made a generic feat for all weapons, and I don't think anyone thinks that any of these are too powerful) but the iteratives for a potentially-more-powerful-than-normal natural weapon is I think the bigger deal. Of course, that only even matters at L6+.

I just suggested Whirling Frenzy as being probably the simplest way to get something Flurry-like right away (though, now that I think about it, maybe not so great for a Devil), and actually there's no reason you can't take some Swordsage too and get Flashing Sun as well at a later level. Swordsage is a very solid L1 class though however you slice it, even if you don't get any flurry type options right away.

[Ryfte]

@TheFred Yeah. I still have no idea why a "natural weapon" can't be an iterative weapon by default, even after all these years, lol. It is literally so simple; if you use a natural weapon in a natural weapon attack sequence it cannot be used in an iterative attack sequence or if you use it in an iterative attack sequence it cannot be used in a natural attack sequence. That's all that you have to do, period. Then all the confusion / complexity goes away.

One of the dumbest, most idiotic aspects of all of this; a tabaxi or catfolk can't make iterative attacks with their claws but if they put claw blades on their hands then they can. Why? Answer: because. This applies to multiple races that have similar "weapons" vs. natural attacks. Tail attacks made with a weapon attachment vs. tail attacks made with a tail attachment. RAW as soon as you attach a weapon to your tail (or hold one in it if you have a prehensile tail) you can then make iterative attacks with it.

Stupid.

[TheFred]

I think it's just for simplicity; a monster has a set bunch of attacks, and that's it, don't worry about it so much. Looking at it now, it seems annoyingly inconsistent, but a lot of old D&D stuff is like that.

[Ryfte]

1 hour ago, TheFred said:

I think it's just for simplicity; a monster has a set bunch of attacks, and that's it, don't worry about it so much. Looking at it now, it seems annoyingly inconsistent, but a lot of old D&D stuff is like that.

I guess the irony of it all is that Kaida could grab a dagger, sized for her, with her tail, as imp's have prehensile tails, and make iterative attacks with that but she couldn't do the same with her tail sting. Its silly. 🤣

In fact, she could take the multi-weapon fighting feat to wield 3 weapons at a time when using her tail this way if I wanted to go that route!

Edited May 26, 2023 by Ryfte (see edit history)