OOC

[Roughtrade]

44 minutes ago, W0LF said:

Who needs Diplomacy or Sense Motive when you have Charm Monster and Suggestion at will?

 

It lacks finesse.
Also, those are not available at first level.

[Grand Poobah]

46 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

 

It lacks finesse.
Also, those are not available at first level.

I think that is where you ask Michael.

Binders are interesting and I have made a lot but never had the chance to play one.

Fits the multi persona angle well, as well as having some connection to demonic powers from another world system

 

[W0LF]

3 hours ago, Roughtrade said:

 

It lacks finesse.
Also, those are not available at first level.

Lol but Succubi aren't generally available at first level either 😅

[Roughtrade]

1 hour ago, W0LF said:

Succubi aren't generally available

Is this not the point of the whole Savage Species/Gestalt thing? That all these demon things are available but not all of their powers at first level?

Not sure what the LoL is for. It seems like the basic premise of this entire game is that these things are not available now but will be.

If I do play a Succubus, I would not want to wait until 5th level or later to suddenly become adept at social situations.

It seems like it would be in her skill set from the beginning.

[Roughtrade]

3 hours ago, Grand Poobah said:

I think that is where you ask Michael.

I thought the Savage Species was the progression being used. "Lesser" Succubus spell like abilities at once a day at second level. 3x a day at 4th. They are not 'at will' until 6th. Greater powers do not begin until 8th. I don't know what Charm Monster should be but it doesn't feel like a "lesser" power to me.

 

On any road, to my mind if a character is presented as Con Artist/Social Adept type then reading other people would be important. Trying to use telepathy on a stronger demon to read their mood seems liable to backfire if they resent the intrusion. On the whole, I was just rather surprised that neither Sense Motive or Diplomacy were considered class skills for a succubus.

[Grand Poobah]

Definitely the savage species progressions and your understanding is correct. I think those skills should be in the monster class was what I was thinking ...I haven't looked at SS...if they are not then ask.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Grand Poobah (see edit history)

[TheFred]

The Succubus got updated a bit in 3.5 and the Savage Species progression is still 3.0 so you may need to apply some common sense. Michael also has more of a scheme for the powers and stuff but I think the rules said use an existing progression if it’s already there.

Binder is a great class, though it definitely feels kinda limited at low levels when you only get one vestige. Naberius is a social beast, though, and also just generally good. Note though that we’re not using Diplomacy anyway so you don’t need to worry about that. I actually played a Binder in an earlier version of this game, though I was mostly just grabbing the debuff aura from Focalor.

[Michael]

@Roughtrade you can take the social skills as class skills, the whole class skill thing is pretty silly anyway.

If you go into the recruitment folder:

Lunermist has a pleasure demon

mole75 has an erynes

palindred has a succubus.

[W0LF]

3 hours ago, Roughtrade said:

Not sure what the LoL is for. It seems like the basic premise of this entire game is that these things are not available now but will be.

Mate. Apologies. Seems I was a bit out of line for making jest. I'll be more serious in the future.

I'm sure if you look around you'll find plenty of information on Binders. But again, my suggestion is to play something you'll enjoy rather than filling a hole.

[Roughtrade]

6 hours ago, W0LF said:

I'll be more serious in the future.

You don't have to

I just think the premise of the joke failed.

6 hours ago, W0LF said:

filling a hole.

In reference to Succubi... That's a good joke. (Insert Smile Emoji Here)

 

6 hours ago, W0LF said:

plenty of information on Binders

I had never run across this before. They do look to be entertaining. I found an anecdotal bit from a GM who had two different players with Binders. One was continually frustrated that their powers changed and some situations they were OP and in others they had to hide behind the Tank. The other was taken up with the randomness of "New Day! New Powers!" and had a blast. I think backed up by a demonic body/gestalt it will be helpful in smoothing out the "You chose the wrong vestige today" situation.

Apparently there are some Feats that help mitigate the disadvantages, like the one vestige that makes you tithe to random dwarves you meet or the one that won't let you attack elves. I am uncertain if Growing Ram Horns is even a disadvantage for a demon. Other suggested Feats seem mostly about once the Binder is 4th-6th level.

[Roughtrade]

7 hours ago, Michael said:

you can take the social skills as class skills, the whole class skill thing is pretty silly anyway.

Just general chatting...

Kytons don't get Sense Motive.

Hell's torturers can't tell if someone is lying to them.

I wonder about the process some of these things go through. When the game designers are working through them, what are they thinking about? Is it game balance? If, as monsters, Succubi do get constant charm, do the guys doing the write up think that it automatically works though spell resistance? Do they think it works on other demons and devils? I would think all evil outsiders are so used to lying and being lied to that they would be suspicious and any demon or devil that cannot tell when it is being lied to is... Well I suppose Arcanoloths really love them.

On any road, some of the developer choices just seem weird to me.

[TheFred]

Why do Hell torturers need to know if someone is lying to them? “Tell me the truth or I’ll torture you some more!” “I am telling the truth!” “Well… better torture you some more just to be on the safe side!”

In all seriousness, I doubt the designers thought about this because, well, it kind of doesn’t matter usually. Those monsters show up as antagonists for a scene and don’t really exist outside that. Succubi hardly even need Charm since most of it winds up being a fluff excuse for them to have more NPC minions anyway (one reason why their ECL is so much higher than their CR: Charm is almost useless for monsters in practice but huge for PCs).

Anyway, the Binder definitely has dud vestiges, but being gestalt helps. Part of the problem is that at low levels, you only get one, so it has to be your entire plan for the day. At later levels you can more afford to take e.g. one that has decent combat abilities, and one that’s more situational or limited.

[Roughtrade]

7 hours ago, TheFred said:

Why do Hell torturers need to know if someone is lying to them? “Tell me the truth or I’ll torture you some more!” “I am telling the truth!” “Well… better torture you some more just to be on the safe side!”

My thought of this was

Asmodeus "Did you get the information from the demon we captured?"

Kyton "Yes! They plan to attack a Magic Kingdom."

Asmodeus "Did they name this Kingdom?"

Kyton "Yes. Very emphatically. He said that they were all going to Disney World"

[Grand Poobah]

I like the idea of an entire realm of CE powerful creatures who compulsively lie, and do so convincingly, but have no skills in detecting lies.

"It's only paranoia if everyone isn't out to kill you."

[Grand Poobah]

I am off for a week so if you guys get there Nizell will join after the 26th Nov