OOC

[TheFred]

It is Eberron, but we're not from here. We've never heard of Eberron before and have no idea what it is. I don't know if that applies to Creed too; all the "real" fiends at least are supposed to come from some classical-D&D Planescape/FR-style world, expecting to be on some other Material Plane that they'd studied and knew things about.

[Michael]

1 hour ago, W0LF said:

So this isn't Eberron? I mean.. it's part of his backstory that he is a shifter Dhampir that came from Eberron, Varna in particular. But I can scratch that if you like?

I'm really sorry mate, I completely missed that. You'll have to scratch that. TheFred's summation is correct.

[Roughtrade]

On 11/30/2023 at 11:06 AM, Roughtrade said:

"Good work, soldier. Maybe I could arrange a private meeting to welcome you properly later on. Bring gifts...." She giggles. "...and maybe a friend."

 

Was there a reaction to this? Scared? Intrigued? Repulsed?

Knowing how the 'rank and file' members of this cult react to us might be helpful in knowing how to approach things.

Addendum

3 hours ago, Michael said:

remember you are new to this world, so "knowledge local". is not going to be of much use

 

I took a rank in Religion, Planes and Local. Representing the idea that some concepts are universal. I may not recognize the deities but certain iconography is always a mark of fertility or sun or weather.
 

But mainly because the way 3.0/3.5 does learning a new skill is CENSORED insane. If I’m going to have Shill ever learn about this new place, I’d rather it not soak up half a level of skill points to do it.

 

Swear to Mog, if I could convince you to import one-single Pathfinder thing, it would be how they do skills.

 

 

[W0LF]

6 hours ago, Michael said:

I'm really sorry mate, I completely missed that. You'll have to scratch that. TheFred's summation is correct.

Not a problem whatsoever :)

[Michael]

16 hours ago, Roughtrade said:

 

Was there a reaction to this? Scared? Intrigued? Repulsed?

 

In my defense, you guys are posting *Alot*. :). I'd go with scared.

Also how does pathfinder do skills?

Edited December 3, 2023 by Michael (see edit history)

[TheFred]

It doesn’t really do class skills, having a class skill (ever) just gives you a bonus (so long as you invest one rank). Slightly devalues them a bit, I’d say, but definitely makes things simpler.

[Roughtrade]

5 hours ago, Michael said:

Also how does pathfinder do skills?

Fred has the essentials. I mean, other than there are class skills. They just give a +3 if it is a class skill.

Take your average arcane caster with an 18 Int. 2+Int Bonus skill points per level is 6 points per level. Each Level. Every Level. No x4 stuff.

They spend their points at first level. Class skills, such as Spell Craft, gets one skill point for a rank. Non-Class skills also gets one skill point for a rank.

There are no half ranks or skills that require double the amount of skill points to rank up. The math is just simpler.

And then there is this : "Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level +3." Page 63 PBH. None of that stuff. Your maximum rank is your level. Period.

And also, something which I had forgotten until looking things up for this game : 4. If you want to pick up a new skill for your character, you can spend skill points equal to his or her character level +3. These skill points buy 1 rank each if the new skill is a class skill or 1/2 rank each if it’s a cross-class skill.  None of that. Just spend a skill point.

[Roughtrade]

3 hours ago, Roughtrade said:

If you want to pick up a new skill for your character, you can spend skill points equal to his or her character level +3.

I know I am obsessing a little, but this is the part that really vexes me.

Taking our Wizard with an 18 intelligence. 6 Skill Points a level. By 4th Level, they can never get a new skill unless they save their points for two levels. Fighters, unless for some reason they buy up their intelligence, never get a new skill at all.

[TheFred]

Well, that's the same in PF too, you just get a bit more of a one-time boost. And, you can get a new skill, you just can't instantly go from novice to expert at it (which... does kinda make sense, actually).

[Polyphemus]

Looks, like I have a lot of posts to catch up on. Excited to do so, but fyi probably won’t be able to post until tomorrow. Kerapsis will just be off in the background trying not to get drawn in to Molgrug’s tirades until then.

[Roughtrade]

47 minutes ago, TheFred said:

And, you can get a new skill,

Not after level seven. Not for anyone really.

And for an extreme look. Rogue who for some reason has an 18 intelligence. 8+4=12 Skill points.

Character Level +3 buy in means by tenth level you cannot get a new skill. Tenth level characters are unable to lean something new.

49 minutes ago, TheFred said:

can't instantly go from novice to expert

Why not? Fantasy Role Playing. We can do magic that lets us fly. We can -without magic- break down steel banded doors with our bare hands.

We can take on an entirely new class, going from wizard to sword sage with one level, so instantly gain how many new skills? Has anyone ever made a character with the million and six 'dips' that are the standard 3.5 build and paid any attention to the cost of a new skill rules?

I dunno. Since I am looking at my hard-bound 3.5 book, maybe that new skill rule got wiped out in the later printings. I cannot recall ever seeing it used. But to me, it is just an example of how weird the skill rules for 3.5 feel once you've gone Pathfinder.

 

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In Other News. Not that y'all care lots and lots...

After the WotC tried to murder the OGL this year and had to walk it back, Pazio has decided to remove all references to D&D from their source books. No more Owlbears. Alignment has been dumped in favor of an Ethics stat. And attributes are sort of removed. Instead of having a Strength of 18 with a +4 bonus, they will be just using +4 as your Strength. No more rolling 3d6 or anything for stats. Distribute a set amount of points to give your stats from 0 to +5 however you wish.

[TheFred]

To be fair, taking one level of Swordsage doesn’t make you a fully level-appropriate Swordsage, you’re still a Swordsage novice (though the ToB classes do multiclassing better than most - you jump up to somewhere in the middle - but that’s unusual). Likewise, you can take a new class and put all your skill ranks into a brand new skill. Even if you only have a few skill points per level you still progress that way faster than someone starting from L1.

PF doesn’t really change that either, though it does make it easier at first - you get the +3 for free rather than needing to sink 3 extra ranks in. Still, you only get as many ranks as you’re willing and able to invest, you don’t jump right to 20 (or however many). One feature of PF (which may be a good or a bad thing, depending on your point of view) is that class skills are now irrelevant for meeting prereqs. In 3.5 it can sometimes be quite hard to get all the skills you need to enter some PrCs or, sometimes, get certain feats, because non-class skills are capped. In PF it doesn’t matter, and in fact the things you care about usually become class skills after you get your PrC level.

[Roughtrade]

51 minutes ago, TheFred said:

taking one level of Swordsage doesn’t make you a fully level-appropriate Swordsage

I beg your pardon? You talk as if learning a new skill at third level makes you an expert with a +20 to the check roll.

One level of Swordsage grants you access to over 20 skills, 6 maneuvers and a martial stance. You instantly know how to use all martial weapons and light armor.

How is that somehow "more realistic" real than learning a new skill and being allowed to put five skill points into it so that you have it at your current level?

 

51 minutes ago, TheFred said:

PF doesn’t really change that either, though it does make it easier at first - you get the +3 for free rather than needing to sink 3 extra ranks in

This was, in fact, my entire point to begin with before you decided to make it an argument. Pathfinder removes the math.

You don't need to manage 32+ skill points at first level as a Ranger, with a high intelligence. Just 8.

That is what I like about Pathfinder skills and feel is better than 3.5. Less Math. Easier to explain to someone new.

[Roughtrade]

I will add, I had no intention of making this some sort of Pathfinder vs D&D thread. We were talking about Creed needing to revise his idea on Local Knowledge and I mentioned that I had also taken a rank to prevent the annoying "Level+3" requirement for learning a new skill. My comment that Pathfinder did skills differently was just a comment, not a challenge.

[TheFred]

32 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

I beg your pardon? You talk as if learning a new skill at third level makes you an expert with a +20 to the check roll.

One level of Swordsage grants you access to over 20 skills, 6 maneuvers and a martial stance. You instantly know how to use all martial weapons and light armor.

If you take a new skill at third level, you can put up to 6 ranks into it and have it be as good as any other L3 character. If you don't have enough skill ranks, you get something in-between. Even if you can only afford 2 ranks per level, yeah, you will be behind at L3 but you'll be progressing that skill twice as quickly as someone who's putting in one rank per level and eventually you'll catch up; your aforementioned example of high-Int Wizard can have full L3 ranks straight away!

One level of Swordsage grants you 6+Int skill points, 6 first-level manoeuvres and a first-level stance. A L3 Swordsage knows more manoeuvres than that any up to L2 ones... you aren't really any better at being a Swordsage than a L1 Swordsage is. Swordsages working the way they do, you get a higher IL and if you took this Swordsage dip very late, you'd get higher-level manoeuvres than a L1 Swordsage but not as good as a full-classed one.

I don't really see that there's a fundamental difference; go from being a L19 Wizard to a L19 Wizard/L1 Swordsage and you don't suddenly get 19 or 20 levels of Swordsage ability, you get something in the middle. Same with skills; you'll be better at those than a L1 character of any class, but not as good as someone who's progressed them for 20 levels.

I'm not trying to "make this an argument", but you're acting like you can never learn new skills after L1 which is, well, patently untrue. 🤷‍♂️

I never really said anything about PF vs 3.5, in fact I totally agree (and already agreed) that PF makes it simpler. 🙂