Write Right with Nighteyes

[Nighteyes5678]

Hello!

For those of you who don't know me, I've been rping for a very long time and writing for longer. I'm a professional author with novels, novellas, and short stories published. I've done developmental and editing work, as well as navigated the world of publishing since it got shaken up when the Kindle dropped.

I study story structure and writing for fun.

In my free time.

All this to say, one of my great loves is talking about stories and writing from a practically creative viewpoint. I'd like to extend my invitation to all of our players (our readers can also jump in, and if I have time, I'll get to them as well) to engage with me however pleases you. This can be asking questions about writing, asking for information, or asking for a critique or review of a work you've done. Heck, if you want, you can even pull your game post and ask for feedback!

I am straight-forward and honest in my thoughts, but I do not believe that there is One True Way To Write (And That's My Way), and I'm kind in my delivery of said feedback. Or, well, kindness and true helpfulness is my goal. If, or when, I stumble, I will welcome correction.

On that note, I will require the same standards of everyone who engages in this thread. I don't have much patience for gatekeeping the art of writing, and we all have to start somewhere. So come with an open mind and a generosity of spirit, please, and please pay attention to if you're responding to something while feeling defensive as that's rarely when we are our best selves.

And if this doesn't appeal to you, truly, that's more than alright. I just thought I'd make a place where people can go to talk about things I love cause I'm selfish like that. ^_^

[Wizard of the Coat]

Unless you have other game-related suggestions, I'd be interested in discussing how to create and develop interesting characters--which seems like something squarely within our wheelhouse in this game. I read Cards' Characters and Viewpoint back in the late 80s. It's the only thing I've ever read specifically addressing the creation of fictional characters. I found it helpful and use some of Cards' ideas in my PbEM.

Do you have suggested readings about character creation/development or thoughts of your own on the topic--particularly as it applies to the cooperative story telling nature of this game?

[Nighteyes5678]

Sure!

First, I'll say that the primary goal in most modern western fiction is to Experience a story Through a Character's Viewpoint. Readers are drawn primarily to character, even when they think they're drawn to plot. This means that our interest is having an engaging character and then filtering everything through that character's 5(-8) senses.

Second, it's important to break out the two things.

In reading a book, the reader gets to know the character by moving linearly through a story. Everything in the story section with that character reveals information about them. How they describe things, what they notice, how they react to the stimulus around them. Everything.

In a cooperative story-telling experience, such as PbP, things get tricky! DMs tend to want to get to know the character before the game starts, which means that we're looking at information flow in a non-lineal sense. That's hard! It's also necessary because the DM is then going to try and anticipate the character's decisions and attention based on what they know about the character. It's co-steering of the character.

Another difficulty is that you have a "neutral" viewpoint doing a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of describing the setting, other characters, and such. Which means that players tend to not do as much on their own, which detracts from their opportunity to build their character organically.

Varen and I, being the clever beans that we are, have tried to mitigate some of this by asking all of you to write vignettes as part of your application process. This was to help you crawl into your character's skin before the game (and honestly, to see if you were capable of doing so) in order for you and us to get to know them.

***

In terms of character creation for a longterm project (a novel or game; anything less and I go for discovery writing more), what I personally do is follow these steps:

1) What's my idea kernel? Something is getting me to create this character, whether it's the story needs, inspiration, an image, or whatever. I'll write that down as clearly as possible.

2) Based on that information, what are the general demographics that I know will be a part of this character? What do those basic aspects tell me about what the character needs, or will be concerned with? And, can that character fulfill the kernel I had envisioned?

3) What's their basic personality type? I tend to think in terms of the Enneagram, though other people have other ways of thinking about personalities. There are no wrong answers, it's whatever helps an entire person live inside of your brain!

4) What's their Strengths and Weaknesses? I ascribe to the basic theory that our greatest strengths are also our greatest weaknesses, and visa versa. So I'll look at both sides to a trait.

5) What is their growth arc that I'm interested in? Or, rather, what lie about the world or themselves do they currently believe? Or, put another way, what survival strategy was necessary for them to once have, but is now not serving them?

6) Finally, what is the difference between what they Want and what they Need, when the story starts?

***

You'll notice there isn't anything about background. That's because I tend to always be thinking in terms of their past experiences and the connections they have, both present and past. So as I think of them in relation to all of those questions, i'll build the background out. Once I decide something, I'll go back through the previous questions and see if there's anything that changes based on that information. The goal is to create an organic character with a history that isn't born on page one.

***

A few resources that jump to mind in terms of character creation:

Getting Into Character: Seven Secrets A Novelist Can Learn From Actors - by Brandilyn Collins 

I'm...spacing on others. I'll have to do a think and add to this.

Was this helpful? Any questions or things you'd like to expand on or discuss in greater depth?

[Wizard of the Coat]

Yes, very helpful. I like your steps and believe I'll give them a try in my own writing (for pleasure).

I'd like to continue the conversation about...

2 hours ago, Nighteyes5678 said:

In a cooperative story-telling experience, such as PbP, things get tricky! DMs tend to want to get to know the character before the game starts, which means that we're looking at information flow in a non-lineal sense. That's hard! It's also necessary because the DM is then going to try and anticipate the character's decisions and attention based on what they know about the character. It's co-steering of the character.

I've played in games where the GM demonstrated an uncanny ability to get into the head of the PCs and write his posts with spot-on accuracy with regard to their viewpoint. I know it can be done, and I suspected the two of you might be another case that proves it can be done.

However, those games were not as enjoyable as games in which the GM created game play conventions that allowed PCs to take over more of that "heavy lifting" you're talking about. For example, I've played in game where:

• Players are allowed to write non-game-changer details into scenes, building upon the GM's description while revealing "what the PC notices" about that description.
• Players are allowed to write interactions with non-named NPCs (i.e. the street vender selling the shish kabobs)--including the NPCs reactions. In affect, players can take over non-named NPCs (with GM approval).
• During combat, the GM provides the monsters' combat stats in some player-accessible visible or invisible (e.g. a combat trackers spreadsheet that--when you enter your attack or damage roll result--tells you if you hit the creature, if your damage killed it...) format, allowing the player to describe not only their combat actions, but the results of their combat actions.
• With GM approval, an Inspiration point can be spent to add a significant detail or change to a scene, e.g. when the enemy's fireball blasted the party and nearly brought down part of the roof, Chongo the Barbarian (via spent Inspiration point) saw a spot in the rafters that--with the aid of one of his throwing hammers--did in fact bring down part of the roof, providing desperately needed cover for the PCs, while also requiring them to make an easy DC Con save or lose an action due to dust in their eyes and/or choking; at the end of a long and unproductive day, one of the PCs (via spent Inspiration point) runs into an old friend at the tavern who just happens to have a lead on the information the party has been seeking, and in the process of revealing his information simultaneously advances/introduces a development in that PCs side-plot ("sorry, Oslan old friend, but some dangerous-looking bloke in a black cape was asking around town for you the other day");...

Are there cooperative storytelling conventions you and Varen might introduce in this game to afford players more heavy-lifting opportunities (relevant to their characters)?

 

[Varen Tai]

All of these suggestions are exactly the kinds of things I want you guys to be able to do. We're writing a story together, and I want you all to feel like you have stakes in them, so TOTALLY make up NPCs with their interactions. When we get to combat, we want to make it read and feel as cinematic as possible, and that's a super cool use of an inspiration point.

Consider this the official GM approval of said bullet points. 😉

[PixCO]

On 1/10/2024 at 3:10 PM, Nighteyes5678 said:

A few resources that jump to mind in terms of character creation:

Getting Into Character: Seven Secrets A Novelist Can Learn From Actors - by Brandilyn Collins 

I'm...spacing on others. I'll have to do a think and add to this.

Was this helpful? Any questions or things you'd like to expand on or discuss in greater depth?

I mentioned DREW Hayes earlier. Do you have an opinion on his Powereds series? He has a set of predefined points for each school year where the characters either grow or die; the start of the year, the Halloween party, mid-terms, finals, and summer break.

I've re-read that series multiple times, running different OCs through its repeating gauntlet to see how they'd develop over a period of four years. I don't want to start an author-flame-war or anything, but I am curious as to what you think about it. Both in using a formula to regulate the pacing of series, because it feels like he did that well, and in taking advantage of that series to develop my own ideas.

Plus I'd like to hear your opinion on the series in general, because I'm a big-ol' book nerd.

Edited January 22 by PixCO
No idea why I keep calling him Brian. I am REALLLY bad with names. (see edit history)

[Nighteyes5678]

I haven't read that series! I looked at my library and sadly they don't have it either, so it'll have to go on the "Books to maybe buy and try" list which is...long.

In general, I don't do author-flame-wars. Books are subjective and if they don't work for me, then they're just not to my taste. Nothing against the author. I can also speak about craft stuff without suggesting that the author is bad or awful, because hey, that's my opinion too and thus is also subjective.

Sadly though, I can't offer specific thoughts or anything as I haven't even read Drew Hayes. He's on my list now, though.

[Rumrunner]

So writing questions! I have one, as it's something I've struggled with as a player in such scenarios and as a writer in general. Is how to jump or blend descriptive writing and perspective writing. I often think of these as DM role and PC roles, sometimes 3rd and 1st person even... but thematically where one is setting the scene and mood and the other is explaining the interaction of the character with said environment. Is it possible to blend these well? Common problems I run into are:

- Wanting to elaborate on something that the character wouldn't know or would be out of character for them to pay any mind to.

- The show, don't tell. Where sometimes descriptions come across as more of a grocery list of nounes with flowery adjectives happening around a character rather than something with solid depth of perspective.

...I have more things, but "focus" :)
 

[PixCO]

The character can reflect on their actions and the interaction, injecting missing details if they don't interfere with the outcome. That's less intrusive than a full flashback and can be used to supply a narration to the events which the characters themselves don't know.

[Rumrunner]

Reflection could definitely work as an alternative to flashback, and I think those two can go hand in hand. Depending on the scenario that is, as it may not be desirable for the introspection to be as dominant as a flashback. There's also timeline concerns of how far back you're flashing back or introspecting, is it something that happened 5min ago or 5 years... specific scenarios could be useful. I may have one up shortly :)

I'm not sure that would get around how one could elaborate on things the character wouldn't typically know or pay attention to though. Thinking on it, one course may be using a narrative technique of pointing out blatantly that it is something this character wouldn't know? Like stating "If John had been more observant he would have noticed..." is that too clumbsy or disjointed? Perhaps introducing another character to fill the gap could be used as well, or a familiar/pet could probably help.

[PixCO]

7 minutes ago, Rumrunner said:

"If John had been more observant he would have noticed..." is that too clumbsy or disjointed?

It always worked well for Terry Pratchett.

[Rumrunner]

6 minutes ago, PixCO said:

It always worked well for Terry Pratchett.

That is very true, he is truly a joy to read... Maybe I'll read going postal again.

[PixCO]

2 minutes ago, Rumrunner said:

That is very true, he is truly a joy to read... Maybe I'll read going postal again.

I'm only up to Maurice at the moment. This is my first time trying to actually read through the entire series. I've noticed he's also very light on describing his characters. Rincewind is tall and skinny, Mustrum Ridcully is ruggedly outdoors-y, and Gaspode is a small mixed breed described more in odor and injury than any other appearance. The rest of their character is about their actions, thoughts, and how others react to them.

[Nighteyes5678]

This is a big and really cool concept! I hope to get some time very soon to talk about it.

Would it be annoying if I only talked about how it applies to writing fiction with answering questions about adapting it to pbp, or is there a different focus you'd like?

[Rumrunner]

It wouldn't be annoying at all, can always expand later.