Anyone for an AD&D revival?

[Malkavian Grin]

Not trying to derail anything here but why not use something like Old School Essentials Advanced Fantasy? It's up to date and reorganized rules for all that old stuff. (I believe classic simulates 1e and the advanced simulates 2e?)

Everything from OSE is compatible with your old modules and monsters. No changes needed.

[Sellsword]

OSE Advanced adds a bunch of races-as-class or race options (depending on how you decide to run it) that aren't part of AD&D 2e. This is a small thing--could very easily house rule what is/isn't allowed. It also culls the spell list and greatly simplifies the spell descriptions--this could be a positive or a negative, depending on perspective. There are other differences, but OSE is adding AD&D 2e stuff to the B/X chassis, it's not the same game.

For me, the biggest issue is that it doesn't say "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover. I know, that's stupid...but the reason I still play a lot of these game is nostalgia. Cut my teeth on AD&D 2e, and those blue-header, three-column pages speak to me in a way that no cleaned up version of the game ever will. OSE is amazing and I love what it stands for, but it's not a game that I want to run.

I've been playing/running AD&D 2e for thirty years, so the granularity/disorganization of the rules aren't a barrier for me. The quirky inconsistencies and idiosyncrasies of AD&D 2e are actually a draw for me, not a detraction. I'm guessing a lot of others that still play the game feel the same way for similar reasons.

[Sellsword]

I wrote this 6 years ago, still holds true today.

Show this

I'm at an interesting place in gaming right now, where I'm able to play in games nearly as often as I'd like.  There are a wide variety of systems being run--Dungeons & Dragons 5e, Pathfinder, and the perennial favorite, Advance Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition.
 

Containing all the charm, complicated systems, page-long spell descriptions and inconsistencies of the beloved first edition of the game, yet presented in a much more readable format with all the nostalgic late 80s and early 90s artwork and cutting edge layout. 

I was recently asked why I like AD&D 2nd Edition so much--is it a better game?  Is it more fun to play?  Is it just the nostalgia?  Nostalgia certainly plays a large part; even though it's not the first game I ever DMed, it's the system which ruled over my longest, most memorable campaign.  It will be hard to replace those memories, and they certainly guide my judgment here.

Whether it's "better" or "more fun" is certainly subjective; that really depends on what your players find fun or interesting.  I've learned that there are several player types--some live for the thrill of tactics, mechanical computations and maximization of character efficiency, others enjoy the narrative that their characters help create, with many different strata in between, all perfectly good reasons to enjoy a roleplaying game.

For me, I appreciate that the system allows a certain grittiness--resources are limited, and character abilities need to be supplemented by using tools or the environment to succeed in prolonged encounters.  Characters cannot create light at will, so you need to carry around light sources.  Spellcasters can't fling unending cantrips in combat, so they need to be creative on turns in between casting spells to be effective.  Healing can't be generated spontaneously, so priests need to manage their spell availability carefully.  Fighters are sometimes simply outmatched, so retreat is often a perfectly good strategy.

I also appreciate the lack of skills (we don't currently use non-weapon proficiency) and tracked abilities.  Without a perception or diplomacy check to rely upon, players have to listen to the DMs descriptions carefully, be creative in using the clues they provide, and it's more important what is said than how skillfully a player rolls in social encounters.  Sure, there are rules to guide a DMs adjudication in these matters, but the open-endedness of the mechanics gives players great faculty to be creative.  Modern editions of the game certainly don't preclude this, but older editions don't necessarily provide skill checks as crutches.  Because most melee-oriented characters don't have "x times per day" abilities, they have to find other ways to contribute in encounters when their sword won't work--whether it's engaging NPCs in social encounters, carrying around a lump of wax or pouch of crushed chalk for those times where you just need to jam a lock or blind a guard, or tipping over a burning brazier onto foes their other weapons are unable to harm.

Finally, I appreciate the lethality of the game.  Surviving the early levels is hard.  Even if you manage to somehow do that, at any time the bite of an errant venomous creature or undiscovered poison needle can end your character's life instantly.  And if you're unlucky enough to encounter the undead, paralysis can fell the mightiest warrior, and level drain can undo weeks or months of progress (if you somehow manage to survive).

I don't think anyone can argue that AD&D 2nd Edition is the tightest rule set; certainly Pathfinder and Dungeons & Dragons 5e have built upon decades of gameplay to provide systems that are both functional and easy to understand.   If you and your players enjoy tactical combat (especially if miniatures are involved), if you enjoy rewards for making efficient, effective choices in character building and equipment selection, and you enjoy having flexible rules to create and adjudicate encounters, then these systems certainly excel in that.  I run a Dungeons & Dragons 5e game currently, and love these aspects of the game.

As a player, however, nothing quite scratches the itch the same way that Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition does.  It's like gaming on hard mode--it's lethal, unapologetic, and rewards caution and calculation and creativity in ways that I don't think are matched by any other game.

Happy gaming, whatever system you're currently playing!

 

[Mindcrime]

I just stumbled onto this thread. I've opened an ad for the Northern Journey adventure here.

[cailano]

On 1/22/2024 at 9:23 AM, Sellsword said:

I wrote this 6 years ago, still holds true today.

Show this

I'm at an interesting place in gaming right now, where I'm able to play in games nearly as often as I'd like.  There are a wide variety of systems being run--Dungeons & Dragons 5e, Pathfinder, and the perennial favorite, Advance Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition.
 

Containing all the charm, complicated systems, page-long spell descriptions and inconsistencies of the beloved first edition of the game, yet presented in a much more readable format with all the nostalgic late 80s and early 90s artwork and cutting edge layout. 

I was recently asked why I like AD&D 2nd Edition so much--is it a better game?  Is it more fun to play?  Is it just the nostalgia?  Nostalgia certainly plays a large part; even though it's not the first game I ever DMed, it's the system which ruled over my longest, most memorable campaign.  It will be hard to replace those memories, and they certainly guide my judgment here.

Whether it's "better" or "more fun" is certainly subjective; that really depends on what your players find fun or interesting.  I've learned that there are several player types--some live for the thrill of tactics, mechanical computations and maximization of character efficiency, others enjoy the narrative that their characters help create, with many different strata in between, all perfectly good reasons to enjoy a roleplaying game.

For me, I appreciate that the system allows a certain grittiness--resources are limited, and character abilities need to be supplemented by using tools or the environment to succeed in prolonged encounters.  Characters cannot create light at will, so you need to carry around light sources.  Spellcasters can't fling unending cantrips in combat, so they need to be creative on turns in between casting spells to be effective.  Healing can't be generated spontaneously, so priests need to manage their spell availability carefully.  Fighters are sometimes simply outmatched, so retreat is often a perfectly good strategy.

I also appreciate the lack of skills (we don't currently use non-weapon proficiency) and tracked abilities.  Without a perception or diplomacy check to rely upon, players have to listen to the DMs descriptions carefully, be creative in using the clues they provide, and it's more important what is said than how skillfully a player rolls in social encounters.  Sure, there are rules to guide a DMs adjudication in these matters, but the open-endedness of the mechanics gives players great faculty to be creative.  Modern editions of the game certainly don't preclude this, but older editions don't necessarily provide skill checks as crutches.  Because most melee-oriented characters don't have "x times per day" abilities, they have to find other ways to contribute in encounters when their sword won't work--whether it's engaging NPCs in social encounters, carrying around a lump of wax or pouch of crushed chalk for those times where you just need to jam a lock or blind a guard, or tipping over a burning brazier onto foes their other weapons are unable to harm.

Finally, I appreciate the lethality of the game.  Surviving the early levels is hard.  Even if you manage to somehow do that, at any time the bite of an errant venomous creature or undiscovered poison needle can end your character's life instantly.  And if you're unlucky enough to encounter the undead, paralysis can fell the mightiest warrior, and level drain can undo weeks or months of progress (if you somehow manage to survive).

I don't think anyone can argue that AD&D 2nd Edition is the tightest rule set; certainly Pathfinder and Dungeons & Dragons 5e have built upon decades of gameplay to provide systems that are both functional and easy to understand.   If you and your players enjoy tactical combat (especially if miniatures are involved), if you enjoy rewards for making efficient, effective choices in character building and equipment selection, and you enjoy having flexible rules to create and adjudicate encounters, then these systems certainly excel in that.  I run a Dungeons & Dragons 5e game currently, and love these aspects of the game.

As a player, however, nothing quite scratches the itch the same way that Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition does.  It's like gaming on hard mode--it's lethal, unapologetic, and rewards caution and calculation and creativity in ways that I don't think are matched by any other game.

Happy gaming, whatever system you're currently playing!

 

Great stuff. The expectation for leveling really changed in the modern editions (3 and up.) These days, you have adventure paths that can take a party from level 1 to level 15 or higher. In old-school D&D, there was absolutely no guarantee anyone in the party would even make it to level nine. That was rarified air. The assumption was that most characters would die before then and that the player would start with a first-level character or at least a couple of levels lower than the rest of the group. It provided a variety of playing experiences and kept the group dynamics fresh.

My experience was that no one liked losing a character, but everyone got excited about their new character.

And the whole game was built around that idea. Look at the BECMI stats for something like a Red Dragon. It had the equivalent of a 21 AC and probably around 50 hit points. A sixth-level party would have a chance against it. That's because sixth level was pretty serious back then.

I think they started powering up dragons in 2E to make them feel more like creatures of legend, but the point still holds for other types of monsters.

[cailano]

On 1/22/2024 at 8:55 AM, Malkavian Grin said:

Not trying to derail anything here but why not use something like Old School Essentials Advanced Fantasy? It's up to date and reorganized rules for all that old stuff. (I believe classic simulates 1e and the advanced simulates 2e?)

Everything from OSE is compatible with your old modules and monsters. No changes needed.

At the very least, OSR GMs should check out the adventures made for OSE. There are so many great ones. Short ones like Temple of 1000 Swords or Hideous Daylight would be perfect for PbP. In the Shadow of Tower Silveraxe would probably take a year to play through. Then there are the really epic adventures like Halls of Arden Vul or Gods of the Forbidden North. You could run those suckers for a decade if you wanted to.

[Malkavian Grin]

2 hours ago, cailano said:

At the very least, OSR GMs should check out the adventures made for OSE. There are so many great ones. Short ones like Temple of 1000 Swords or Hideous Daylight would be perfect for PbP. In the Shadow of Tower Silveraxe would probably take a year to play through. Then there are the really epic adventures like Halls of Arden Vul or Gods of the Forbidden North. You could run those suckers for a decade if you wanted to.

I'd rather play something a bit shorter that can actually be finished (like you felt last year Cai 😉), especially since I'm running Dawn of Defiance in Star Wars SAGA edition. That sucker runs from level 1 through 20. It took us a year and shedding half the players (I ran 2 groups initially) but we finished the first module in January and have been just enjoying some really moving inter-party RP where people are discovering who each other really are. It's been awesome! But I can only do one game like this at a time. It's just intensive on my creativity.

[cailano]

14 hours ago, Malkavian Grin said:

I'd rather play something a bit shorter that can actually be finished (like you felt last year Cai 😉), especially since I'm running Dawn of Defiance in Star Wars SAGA edition. That sucker runs from level 1 through 20. It took us a year and shedding half the players (I ran 2 groups initially) but we finished the first module in January and have been just enjoying some really moving inter-party RP where people are discovering who each other really are. It's been awesome! But I can only do one game like this at a time. It's just intensive on my creativity.

I still feel that way in general. I tried to talk myself out of Barrowmaze for several months but for whatever reason my brain just needed to run a megadungeon.

I guarantee that when Web of All Torment wraps up my next project will be of a better length for PbP.

[Sellsword]

Barrowmaze certainly hasn't started off like a mega-dungeon.

[Mindcrime]

Well, you got to get to it first. I assure you, it's most definitely a mega-dungeon.

[Excior]

what are everybody's thoughts on Labyrinth Lord and Advanced Labyrinth Lord? cant get any closer in my opinion to Basic/Expert D&D or AD&D than that

Edited February 29 by Excior (see edit history)

[cailano]

I really like Advanced Labyrinth Lord. It's one of my favorite all-in-one-book systems. I do have two concerns about it:

1. It is getting rewritten right now, and it sounds like the author wants to go a different direction than the current retroclone.

2. The book is hard to navigate, and the PDF version is poorly made. Clicking on the navigation links resets the zoom level in many PDF viewers, which makes it borderline unusable. That's the reason I decided to run Barrowmaze in Basic Fantasy. Also, Basic Fantasy is easier to get in both PDF and print and a whole lot cheaper for those who want a physical copy.

So, basically, I see your Advanced Labyrinth Lord and raise you a Basic Fantasy RPG.

[Malkavian Grin]

You can fix that auto zoom issue...if you subscribe to Adobe...

[Excior]

17 minutes ago, cailano said:

I really like Advanced Labyrinth Lord. It's one of my favorite all-in-one-book systems. I do have two concerns about it:

1. It is getting rewritten right now, and it sounds like the author wants to go a different direction than the current retroclone.

2. The book is hard to navigate, and the PDF version is poorly made. Clicking on the navigation links resets the zoom level in many PDF viewers, which makes it borderline unusable. That's the reason I decided to run Barrowmaze in Basic Fantasy. Also, Basic Fantasy is easier to get in both PDF and print and a whole lot cheaper for those who want a physical copy.

So, basically, I see your Advanced Labyrinth Lord and raise you a Basic Fantasy RPG.

nuff said

 

[cailano]

2 hours ago, Malkavian Grin said:

You can fix that auto zoom issue...if you subscribe to Adobe...

The PDF reader Okular fixes it at no cost, but I think it only works natively in Linux (it's part of the KDE suite), and I bounce back and forth between Linux and MacOS.