Maybe the Campaign Isn't About the PCs

[Raistlinmc]

I've actually run games that fall somewhat into this category that Cai brought up in the original post here, but not exactly. My first game - and surely my longest, as it began on another site in 2010 and transferred over to MW in 2012 before continuing on another few years - began with PCs at level 2 (Pathfinder 1e, sandbox style story). Once those PCs hit level 8 and transitioned to a new plane of existence (long story), a new set of PCs were created and were run in alternating chapters with the original PCs; players would switch from mid-to-high level characters to low-level characters and back again every couple months or so. This worked pretty darn well, honestly. It allowed players to bask in the glory of upper-level antics that often grind games to a halt and then suddenly they're fighting for their lives again against kobolds and goblins with their low-level new characters.

I won't pretend this approach will work for everyone - I was too new to know better and my players were too damn kind to tell me I was nuts for trying it - but it was a fun twist on the two-characters/one-player concept Cai alluded to above.

Edited February 14 by Raistlinmc (see edit history)

[cailano]

@Raistlinmc that's a great example. The campaign was larger than the PCs, even though I'm sure the PCs were very important.

 

[shawnhcorey]

The campaign is larger than the PCs but the PCs are the focus of the campaign for a time. Other groups will be the focus in their time.

[Raistlinmc]

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it, honestly: the campaign was larger than the PCs, despite them being pretty darn important to how it all turned out.

[Vladim]

Some games already do this, actually: for example, in the ASoIaF RPG, players make a "house" (or noble family) collectively, and make the PCs associated with this house. Then the game is about the house's fortunes.

But more broadly, if a game is not about the PCs, the GM had better do a good job of clearly articulating what the game is actually about, including themes and such, to sell me on it. That's honestly, kind of rare: looking at game ads, I very rarely get any clear idea what games are about (except about some super-basic premise about dungeon delving which, honestly, ain't much to go by).

[cailano]

14 minutes ago, Vladim said:

Some games already do this, actually: for example, in the ASoIaF RPG, players make a "house" (or noble family) collectively, and make the PCs associated with this house. Then the game is about the house's fortunes.

But more broadly, if a game is not about the PCs, the GM had better do a good job of clearly articulating what the game is actually about, including themes and such, to sell me on it. That's honestly, kind of rare: looking at game ads, I very rarely get any clear idea what games are about (except about some super-basic premise about dungeon delving which, honestly, ain't much to go by).

Which is part of what I liked about the blog post I linked to in the original post of this thread. It wasn't just that the GM make his campaign more about the setting, it was that he communicated it so clearly to the players.

His campaign sounds awesome, too. That's one GM who isn't afraid to put in the work.

[Vladim]

5 hours ago, cailano said:

Which is part of what I liked about the blog post I linked to in the original post of this thread. It wasn't just that the GM make his campaign more about the setting, it was that he communicated it so clearly to the players.

His campaign sounds awesome, too. That's one GM who isn't afraid to put in the work.

I mean, if I understood the blog post correctly, what they're offering is not too specific: they are basically saying that the campaign won't be about the PCs, but about the setting and an epic tale that they can't say anything about but promise that they will discover together.

Can they deliver? For some players, probably yes. For others, maybe not. But why the lack of details? Where are the core themes, the opening premise, some elements of the narrative? Such things would help players decide if it's of potential interest. Grand promises of an epic awesome amazing super-incredible story would not make me personally bite-I'd need a bit more substance to make an informed decision (especially since the GM is planning on treating all PCs as completely expendable, so I shouldn't anyway get too invested on my PC).

But hey, that's just me.

[cailano]

43 minutes ago, Vladim said:

I mean, if I understood the blog post correctly, what they're offering is not too specific: they are basically saying that the campaign won't be about the PCs, but about the setting and an epic tale that they can't say anything about but promise that they will discover together.

Can they deliver? For some players, probably yes. For others, maybe not. But why the lack of details? Where are the core themes, the opening premise, some elements of the narrative? Such things would help players decide if it's of potential interest. Grand promises of an epic awesome amazing super-incredible story would not make me personally bite-I'd need a bit more substance to make an informed decision (especially since the GM is planning on treating all PCs as completely expendable, so I shouldn't anyway get too invested on my PC).

But hey, that's just me.

I just got my copy of Castle of the Silver Prince, which is essentially the campaign he’s been running. I’ll let you know how it looks.

He would have had me at AD&D RAW with tactical, segment by segment combat. That by the guy who wrote Dream House of the Nether Prince, a few novels, and the video game Dishonored? Sign me up for that.

[Vladim]

Yup, I don't know any of those, so perhaps that's why I am a bit sceptical, but maybe you're right!

I think thinking what games are actually "about" is a good (productive) question regardless, though I haven't seen it discussed much. It's a broader topic that I would like to see more folks engage, but that's something for another thread, so I'll go take my skepticism and negativity somewhere else :)

[paula36]

I don't think your opinon is about negativity, it's about a valid concern. With a real-life group, how many potential GM's are there? Probably that one who volunteers, and if they say what The Blue Bard said, then that's what the players have.

In a pbp environment, where there's a GM advertising a game, you don't really know them, and there are plenty other games to apply for. So it's just natural that you don't invest into something that's very vague and uncertain. It's logical that you want 'a bit more substance to make an informed decision' as you put it.

[DarkisNotEvil]

My answer to this is a justification for PCs having specific restrictions on character creation: The characters are part of an organization. This solves a number of conceits out of the gate, and allows the DM to change the flavor to fit the needs of the campaign:

• Why do your characters trust each other (at least to keep each other alive)?
  • They all took the same vows and are honor-bound to them.
  • They're all part of the same clan, and depend on that clan for survival.
  • All of them signed up for the society, and know what to expect of fellow members.
• How do your characters get all of their fancy equipment and training?
  • They may have been given cool stuff by the organization.
  • They may have been trained by the organization to fill a gap.
  • They may have been hired because they had specialized skills.
• Why do your characters have restrictions on where they can and can't go/can or can't do?
  • You have to follow the charter.
  • You have to keep up appearances.
  • If you don't do as you're told, you can get court-martialed or even executed depending on the gravity of the crime (and how important it was in context).
• Why do you get special permissions (e.g. license to kill)?
  • It was opened up ahead of time by the organization.
  • Super-hero organizations have to have certain legal free movement or they just don't function.
  • You're acting as part of a revolution, so legality isn't important.
• What happens when a member of the cell dies?
  • We mourn the loss of a comrade and find a new member of the organization to fill the gap.
  • We clone the lost PC and get the revived ally back up to speed.

The kind of organization the PCs join provides restrictions on who can join, a range of motivations local to the organization, and expectations as to how they'll act. Thieves' guilds act sneaky, mercenaries kill for profit, paladins protect the innocent (hopefully).