5e - Adjudicating Actions that mimic Feats/etc

[Omnis]

I've been out of dnd DM mode for a bit but I'm now DMing a 5e game for a group of kids.

 

Been pouring over rules, as one does, but I'm getting hung up on something...

 

A DM is encouraged to allow players to do creative things in combat (swing across the room on chandelier, etc).

 

That's great but there also an action economy (move, action, bonus action if allowed, reaction) that exists.

 

And you also have class features and feats which basically codify one kind of "creative action" or another.

 

So at level 1, in combat, you have to weigh "I swing my sword" actions...which directly harm an opponent, with other actions. Is it WORTH doing something else just to end up "swinging my sword" a round later?

 

Ok to my question/point: what if a player wants to do something in combat that mimics a feat or class feature and they don't HAVE that feat/feature?

 

Say something like sweep the leg of an opponent, harm them and cause them to go prone (essentially 2 base actions in combo).

 

Is there some basic standing rule I could adopt in such cases...like "roll at disadvantage" and feel safe in knowing I haven't broken the balance of the game while still being able to say "yes" to players?

[Sellsword]

Players are only going to attempt creative actions if the rewards for them are provided by the GM. That's my experience, in any case, but balancing what the character wants to accomplish vs. the rules behind it is more of an art than a science. If there's a risk involved (such as an Athletics or Acrobatics check to swing across the chandelier), there should be a reward attached to it--moving between two balconies that would otherwise be impossible, gaining advantage on a follow-up attack, etc.

I find that PCs often want to use scenery in their actions (pushing over bookcases or burning braziers), but the damage is usually lower than what the PC would get if they just whacked the bad guy with their sword. In those cases, I make sure there's some commensurate bonus that makes the action worth it (improvised weapon damage as well as creating a patch of difficult terrain, etc.).

That's all within the spirit of the rules, and the more you encourage it, the more it will happen. As a DM, it's tough not to over-reward this kind of creativity though--in your example of sweeping the leg to achieve damage and giving the prone condition, if they don't have multiple attacks you're basically giving them away. I probably wouldn't allow it in my game ("That's two actions, which do you want to prioritize for this round?"). If you were to allow it, imposing disadvantage is probably a fair way to start to balance that kind of thing...but gaining advantage is so easy in 5e that it seems like a pretty easy gift to abuse. Really all depends on your players and how you want to run things.

[Basil_Bottletop]

The Rule of Cool often becomes the Rule of I-Did-it-Before-and-it-Worked. So when you provide adhoc rules for things, prepare for them to be used again and again. There's nothing saying you can't have second feelings about a ruling after the session and you tell the table that you made a mistake and you probably won't allow 'that action' again, but I feel as though it's often left unsaid and then the GM mildly hates themselves when it inevitably gets used again.

It also becomes subject of player bias. If a player has some leverage in the group's social dynamic, their Rule of Cool rulings gets more margin than another player.

So basically, I'm saying that if you intend to rewrite some rules, do it officially so that you can point to them and say: "These are the written rules." The unwritten rules always come under some scrutiny.

[Omnis]

1 hour ago, Basil_Bottletop said:

The Rule of Cool often becomes the Rule of I-Did-it-Before-and-it-Worked. So when you provide adhoc rules for things, prepare for them to be used again and again. There's nothing saying you can't have second feelings about a ruling after the session and you tell the table that you made a mistake and you probably won't allow 'that action' again, but I feel as though it's often left unsaid and then the GM mildly hates themselves when it inevitably gets used again.

It also becomes subject of player bias. If a player has some leverage in the group's social dynamic, their Rule of Cool rulings gets more margin than another player.

So basically, I'm saying that if you intend to rewrite some rules, do it officially so that you can point to them and say: "These are the written rules." The unwritten rules always come under some scrutiny.

This is what I'm trying to avoid, I think.

 

If players are being tactical, they will attempt to maximize their advantage when it comes to actions.

 

The way this connects with "boring combat" is that "hit with sword" ends up being the most optimal way to dispatch an opponent...vs taking other actions like pushing, making prone, etc...

 

So a creative action that attempts to do damage (more than say the sword) or combine damage with some other effect...should be balanced by being difficult / roll at disadvantage to allow but not make a player want to do the action EVERY time.

 

I was just looking for a simple blanket rule to adhere to... 😄

 

🤷‍♂️

[CharmingSatyr]

There is a way of looking at this in terms of cost. Actions taken with feats usually symbolize time, effort, and training that went into mastering a skill or talent. People trying to mimic those talents are doing so without the benefit of training, so should pay in some other way.

You see hints of this with Pathfinder feats. Anybody can attempt to disarm, but without improved disarm, you risk an AoO. Anybody can apply poison to their weapon, but without the class skill or feat, you have a chance to poison yourself with every application.

If you're going to allow featless feat usage, there should be some element of risk or danger in doing so.

Yes, the player should be allowed to swing from the chandelier. But if they fail, there should be some consequence. Maybe they take fall damage. Maybe they set the place on fire. Maybe they land in the wrong location and they have to take a move action to get to where they were aiming. Maybe their weapon is stuck in the chandelier.

A final note -- things should be difficult, but not impossible. I personally find massaging the skill DC so they have about a 1:3 or 1:4 chance of success is the sweet spot for me as a GM. People fail more often than not, but when they succeed, it's a glorious moment for the whole table.

[Omnis]

1 hour ago, CharmingSatyr said:

There is a way of looking at this in terms of cost. Actions taken with feats usually symbolize time, effort, and training that went into mastering a skill or talent. People trying to mimic those talents are doing so without the benefit of training, so should pay in some other way.

You see hints of this with Pathfinder feats. Anybody can attempt to disarm, but without improved disarm, you risk an AoO. Anybody can apply poison to their weapon, but without the class skill or feat, you have a chance to poison yourself with every application.

If you're going to allow featless feat usage, there should be some element of risk or danger in doing so.

Yes, the player should be allowed to swing from the chandelier. But if they fail, there should be some consequence. Maybe they take fall damage. Maybe they set the place on fire. Maybe they land in the wrong location and they have to take a move action to get to where they were aiming. Maybe their weapon is stuck in the chandelier.

A final note -- things should be difficult, but not impossible. I personally find massaging the skill DC so they have about a 1:3 or 1:4 chance of success is the sweet spot for me as a GM. People fail more often than not, but when they succeed, it's a glorious moment for the whole table.

Yes what I'm trying to do is figure out the cost levers...and hopefully have just a couple easy ones I can use and they can understand.

 

For 5e it seems like:

- roll with disadvantage

- increased DC to succeed

- opponents gains advantage rest of round

- AOO

 

[matt_s]

7 hours ago, Omnis said:

Say something like sweep the leg of an opponent, harm them and cause them to go prone (essentially 2 base actions in combo).

for this specific answer, just say "your fighter is not practiced enough to do this in one fell swoop but she can certainly substitute one attack to shove and a second to swing at their now prone enemy."

sadly other examples become basically great weapon master/sharpshooter but different (called shots are an example of this), and so forth