rules discussion Techslinger Archetype / Technologist Feat

[iantruesilver]

There's no good way to start this but to start this.

 

So I'll preface this with my current dilemma.  I'm on the one hand a staunch stickler for simple, uncomplicated, yet sensible rulesets.  Back in the days of 3.5, this meant a somewhat unjustified bias against splat books galore, and sources like Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magik.  It's partly also why I became part of the 2nd horde of turncoats to come to embrace PF1e.

 

On the other hand, I've grown tremendously both as a player and a GM in the past couple of decades, and my understanding that rules are limited in their ability to govern/describe/justify all things has grown appreciably.  However that is still strongly balanced with my dislike of 3pp sources as well as the "implement a rule simply because it's cool", without necessary thought on balance.

 

One of the biggest mistakes I've ever made during this journey was granting a mythic level to a group of Level 4 adventurers, at the beginning of the 2nd book for Second Darkness.  Oh boy.  Let's just say their shenanigans basically allowed them to skip the entire book's worth of encounters, and the wizard pretty much steamrolled the rest, even the custom xenomorphs that I personally designed specifically for that AP.

 

However.  Iron Gods stands as the one Pathfinder RPG AP that is distinctly apart from the rest.  It introduces AND openly embraces sci-fi elements in a high fantasy setting.  Pathfinder's ruleset was not originally written to accomodate for this very well, and therfore some of the things can and should foreseeably be modified for a better, more streamlined play experience.

 

So this will serve as a discussion thread about changes we need to implement.

 

Suggest a change, justify to me why it should be changed, and make it sound reasonable and not overpowered for the sake of a power increase, and we will be able to agree on implementing a change.

Edited January 17, 2023 by iantruesilver (see edit history)

[iantruesilver]

First suggestion is a personal one.

 

Background: In the live table version of this game I'm running, I've houseruled to allow my wife to take both Techslinger and Scatter Gunner archetypes for her Gunslinger PC, Belinda.  This PC is being ported over as my GMNPC.  Why?  The whole reason this MW version currently exists is because of her.

 

The issue at hand: Techslinger.  This gunslinger archetype is incompatible with not only Scatter Gunner, but over 2/3's of the other Gunslinger archetypes that Paizo have written (see attached infographic).  While thematically, techslinger is decent in power for an Iron Gods campaign, in that it allows the gunslinger to use many of the things found in this AP for slightly better worth, it still takes away a lot of the versatility from being able to take some of the other better-written archetypes in combo.

 

Suggested change: To be discussed.  Option 1: I "cheat" with Belinda, because she's a GMNPC, and you all turn a blind eye.  Option 2: We make techslinger combo-able with other gunslinger archetypes somehow.  I have no idea how.

 

The balance: I understand that while Techslinger is incompatible with other archetypes, that's for good reason.  With access to tech guns, techslinger more than holds its own weight in battle, and hardly needs anything else.

Edited January 5, 2023 by iantruesilver (see edit history)

[Roughtrade]

I didn't even look at this thread before, figuring it only was important to those who would be in your game.  I do like to debate rules and stuff, especially when it comes to the modifications you need to do to make a Table Top game work well in Play by Post.  But it can get some people cranky.

On 1/4/2023 at 2:05 PM, iantruesilver said:

Suggested change: To be discussed.  Option 1: I "cheat" with Belinda, because she's a GMNPC, and you all turn a blind eye.  Option 2: We make techslinger combo-able with other gunslinger archetypes somehow.  I have no idea how.

 

The balance: I understand that while Techslinger is incompatible with other archetypes, that's for good reason.  With access to tech guns, techslinger more than holds its own weight in battle, and hardly needs anything else.

Your infographic is impossible to read as an OOC comment.  One of the things I dislike about this version over oldschool is how the OOC works.  

This is also a reason why I dislike most of the Archetypes; they typically take away one of the signature abilities of the class.  Rogues, for example, almost always lose Trapfinding.  A skill which is actually not used very often so why not give it up except for it is really so integral to the concept of being a thief that taking it away almost always annoys me.  The only reason it doesn't bother me so much on Domino is that the Archetype replaces the magical trap part with technological traps and that makes sense considering this AP's setting.

 

With that in mind, I would strongly suggest not taking Techslinger with Scatter Gunner.  Both of them replace numerous, overlapping, Gunslinger abilities but that is just mechanics and I am always in favor of junking them for good story or just plain fun.  The Rule of Cool“Whenever an action might improve the story, or drive it forward in a way that will make the players happy, consider allowing it, even if it goes against rules as written, so long as it does not break the most fundamental rules of the world and setting.” is the only unbreakable rule after all.  (Actually, it is Rule ZeroThe DM can over rule any and all other rules as he or she sees fit., but the Rule of Cool is a Corollary)  And for real, since Gygax and Arneson printed Chainmail"As with any other set of miniatures rules they are guidelines to follow in designing your own fantastic-medieval campaign."
– Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, Dungeons & Dragons Volume 1, Men & Magic (1974), p.4, this has always been a rule for Dungeons and Dragons.

 

However.  Scatter Gunner is all about using a shotgun and I am really hoping there are not too many high tech shotguns around.  Not enough to make this a worthwhile combination.  I honestly think Scatter Gunner is more of a thing which should be accomplished by Feats rather than an entire Archetype.  

 

For that matter, I do not see why Techslinger has to be an Archtype either.  The character begins with a powder and ball flintlock and has no access to the main features of his class until the GM deigns to grant access to a tech weapon?  Either the GM is going to throw them a laser pistol in the first couple of encounters or they are going to screw the player over for a few levels.  Neither of those sounds palatable.  

 

Why not just let the Gunslinger be a Gunslinger and if the campaign introduces tech weapons, then allow the Gunslinger to take a feat which allows them to do those things?  Reliable and Charge Recycling are especially egregious.  It is just the same feats they are replacing but for a high tech weapon.  If your character had never held a powder weapon before, then sure... they don't know how to clear a bum shot.  But since they started with one in hand, you can't say that.  

 

The 5th level Technic Training ability is just reflavored Gun Training.  

---

Honestly, I think I would dump Techslinger completely and say that if a Gunslinger takes the Feat of Technologist then they are for all intents and purposes able to do Techslinger without making them somehow forget how to use more primitive weapons.   

[Wiz]

Seeing that my character uses a gun and is a gunslinger VMC, my opinion might be easily considered biased; however, I agree with Roughtrade.  If a person takes technologist, then they should be able to adapt their prior gun knowledge with operating the more advanced weaponry, since it is still basically a gun.  I've had an argument with my brother where he was upset in the first Avengers movie, where Black Widow picks up one of the alien's weapons and just uses it.  My counter argument, she's a spy, a weapon's expert, and basically it is a rifle that has a trigger... why wouldn't she be able to figure it out.  Furthermore, considering your own rules... if you take Weapon Focus, or Rapid Reload and you have Exotic Weapons (firearms) - then the Weapon Focus and Rapid Reload work for ALL firearms, not just a single one that you have to pick.  You've already opened the rules to say that if you know how to use one firearm, you can apply all the weapon feats you took for it to another.

That's my 💰💰

[Roughtrade]

1 hour ago, iantruesilver said:

PF shotguns are bullets and pellets (basically modern era shotguns).

If you are in favor of letting the Technologist Feat allow a Gunslinger to use the Techslinger grit functions, then I do not see why it would impact Scatter Gun Archetype.  Making Techslinger a feature of the Technologist Feat removes the Archetype clash.  

 

The only concern then would be how does this impact other Tech flavored Archetypes.  Would it allow Rogues with the Technologist Feat to use their Trapfinding on Tech traps?  If so, it rather subverts Domino's Archetype.  I would be tempted to rework her Feats so that she could be a Knifemaster.  Which I was looking at anyways, since both Val and Bruce have Disable Device and Tech-Features, Trapfinding on Domino is a bit superfluous. But we could use a little bit more DPS. 

[iantruesilver]

15 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

letting the Technologist Feat allow a Gunslinger to use the Techslinger grit functions

I’m heavily considering that as the way forward currently.

16 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

The only concern then would be how does this impact other Tech flavored Archetypes

Agreed, that’s always the balance question.

16 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

Would it allow Rogues with the Technologist Feat to use their Trapfinding on Tech traps?

Doesn’t it already? I thought it did! Or maybe that’s specifically a result of Local Ties. I have to look. I’ll be home shortly to double check.

[Roughtrade]

58 minutes ago, iantruesilver said:

Doesn’t it already? I thought it did! Or maybe that’s specifically a result of Local Ties. I have to look. I’ll be home shortly to double check.

By my reading, the Tech Traps are Equal but Separate from Magic Traps.  Requires Numerian Scavanger to use Trapfinding for Tech Traps and you give up Trapfinding for Magic Traps to get it.

 

Wording may be confusing.  Trapfinding the Ability allows a Rogue to add half their level into Finding Traps and Disabling Traps.  Rogues that give this up can still find and disable traps, they just do not get a boost to the skill check.  

 

The Rogue Ability of Trapfinding specifically says that Rogues can find and disable magical traps.  The Rules sayz (and I prefer the PFSRD just because the Search Function is like ten times faster) Only characters with the trapfinding class feature can attempt a Disable Device check involving a magic trap. And this is backed up in most discussions of the Ability.  It does not forbid Finding Traps, so locating traps is not impacted.  

 

The Technologist Feat does not change this as written.  Not technically but....  "

Benefit: You are considered to be trained in any skill used against a technology-based subject. If the skill in question requires training to use even against non-technological subjects, you must still have ranks in that skill in order to gain the benefit of Technologist.

Normal: You treat all skill checks made against technology as if they were untrained skill checks. This may mean that you cannot attempt certain skill checks, even if you possess ranks in the skill in question."

 

This would seem to me to indicate that the Technologist Feat allows any skill which you are trained in to apply to Technology Artifacts/Situations.  However, the Numerian Scavenger Archetype specifically states that it allows Rogues to find Technical Traps.  And they lose the ability to find Magical Traps.  This mirrors the wording on Trapfinding allowing Rogues to find Magic Traps, which would indicate that without this specific skill, you cannot disable Tech Traps.  

 

So the impact on the current campaign would be, if you allow the Technologist Feat to grant access to finding and disabling Tech Traps, then Bruce and Val can use their skills to find and disable Tech Traps.  If Technologist does not grant that ability then Domino needs to retain her Trapfinding modified by Numerian Scavenger so she can do it for the group.  

[Wiz]

Obviously I have the Local Ties campaign trait, and it does allow me to use either disable device or Knowledge (engineering) as if I had the Technologist Feat.  I picked Disable Device (with the thought of tech traps), but if it doesn't work that way, let me know.

[iantruesilver]

Okay so, summarizing...

 

First, back to the core issue:  Techslinger as an archetype clashes with Scatter Gunner.  The only point they conflict on is Deadeye.

 

Benefits gained at hand:

• Covet Charge (****) — Being able to use Grit to substitute charges is pretty good, dependant on availability of batteries
• Reliable (***) — Handy to be able to reroll a glitch. Not amazing
• Charge Recycling (**) — Essentially no different than Covet Charge, just extends the ability to being able to temporarily charge a normally dead piece of tech.  Situational to meh
• Heavy Weapon Deeds (****) — Depending on availability of heavy weapons, this could be decent to awesomesauce
• Bonus Feats (*) — Wow.  Really?  So generous.  One might think that if I'm taking this archetype, I'd already be investing in technologist, or at least Local Ties already
• Technic Training (***) — Gun Training with shiny new laser paint job.  Useful, but an expected even trade

 

Larger picture: Techslinger clashes with a bunch of other gunslinger archetypes as well.  Which leads to @Roughtrade's suggestion of integrating the Techslinger archetype into benefits gained by the Technologist feat.

 

Even larger picture: This benefits gunslingers, and amateur gunslinging characters.  Pretty much nobody else.

 

Point of concern: How does this balance against other classes taking either tech flavoured archtypes as opposed to just the Technologist feat?

 

Example given: Do Rogues with Technologist feat get to use Trapfinding class feature on tech traps?

 

Okay...  So.

 

A deeper look at Technologist feat: 

41 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

Benefit: You are considered to be trained in any skill used against a technology-based subject. If the skill in question requires training to use even against non-technological subjects, you must still have ranks in that skill in order to gain the benefit of Technologist.

Normal: You treat all skill checks made against technology as if they were untrained skill checks. This may mean that you cannot attempt certain skill checks, even if you possess ranks in the skill in question."

Right.  So, this basically is the plugin for a SKILL to be able to be used with technology.  Now as opposed to being able to say disable device just a bear trap, you can disable device an iPhone alarm.

 

How Technologist interacts with Trapfinding?  First a look at Trapfinding as a class feature:

Quote

Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Okay, so just a class level bonus to perceive and disable ALL traps.  Trapfinding specifically allows the use of Disable Device to disarm magic traps.  This is mirrored in the Disable Device skill blurb.

 

However.  Here's the find.  Scroll down on the Disable Device skill page a bit, and we see the Technologist feat mentioned.

Quote

Technology

Source Technology Guide pg. 5
With the Technologist feat, you can use Disable Device to arm or disarm high-tech explosives or disable electronic triggers or locks. The Technologist feat is not required to disable a high-tech trap or object, but such traps and objects often have significantly higher DCs to disable than low-tech versions of a similar device would have.

Arm Explosive: If you possess a detonator, you can arm an explosive weapon as a trap. Connecting a detonator to an explosive requires a successful DC 10 Disable Device check. Failure means that the attempt fails, but you can attempt to arm the explosive again. Failure by 5 or more means the explosive is triggered as the detonator is installed. You can attempt to make an explosive difficult to disarm. To do so, choose a target disarm DC of 15 or higher, with a DC increment of 5. This becomes your target DC to set the explosive as well as the DC to disarm the explosive.

Disable Electronic Lock or Trigger: Disabling an electronic lock on a door or an electronic trigger for a trap (not the trap itself) is easier if you use an e-pick—without an e-pick, you take a -5 penalty on such checks.

Disarm Explosive: Disarming an explosive requires the character to succeed at a Disable Device check as if disarming a trap. The DC is usually 10, unless the person who set the explosive successfully did so with a higher disarm DC. A failure to disarm an explosive by 5 or more immediately triggers the explosive.

Special: A character can take 10 when using Disable Device to arm or disarm explosives, but cannot take 20.

Time: Arming an explosive device takes 1 minute or more, depending on the scope of the job. Disarming an explosive is treated as if the explosive were a complex trap, and takes 2d4 rounds to attempt.

So, confirmed (kinda).  Basically Technologist feat does allow you to disable iPhone alarms at a much lower DC than normal.  Not that you can't do it without the feat, Technologist just allows you to ignore the DC increase.

 

Now... The Numerian Scavenger Archetype...

Quote

Technic Training (Ex): A Numerian scavenger adds 1/2 her rogue level to Perception skill checks to locate mechanical or high-tech traps and to Disable Device skill checks against these traps (minimum +1). She gains Technologist as a bonus feat. She cannot use Disable Device to disarm magical traps. This ability replaces trapfinding.

The question becomes this.  Does this mean that normally Rogues without this class feature would not receive their bonuses to Perception and Disable Device against iPhone alarms, simply from their regular Trapfinding class feature, even if you have the Technologist feat and are trained in both Perception and Disable Device skills?

 

Because reading Trapfinding and Technologist, I don't really get that impression.  I'm thinking this version of the class feature basically is no different than just giving Technologist as a Bonus Feat to the Rogue.  The text merely clarifies that the class level bonus you'd normally get from Trapfinding now do apply to iPhone alarms, as opposed to just your mundane bear trap.  Sucks that you'd have to trade away magical traps for that.

 

My gut instinct is that if a Rogue has Trapfinding and Technologist, and are trained in Perception and Disable Device, they'd be able to use their bonuses on those skills on Technology-based traps.

[iantruesilver]

Okay.  Now that I'm done getting sidetracked on the Rogue front... Back to Techslinger.

12 hours ago, Roughtrade said:

Reliable and Charge Recycling are especially egregious.  It is just the same feats they are replacing but for a high tech weapon.

Not sure what you mean...  Are you saying that Reliable is the Quick Clear deed (Actually this kind of more mirrors Expert Loading if I'm understanding them right?) for tech guns, and Charge Recycling... I'm not sure what feat/deed that would mirror.

[Roughtrade]

There are more uses for disable device than traps.  Technologist will allow you to use disable device to open locks, manipulate machinery and stuff.  As written, it does not allow disarming tech traps.  

[iantruesilver]

17 minutes ago, Roughtrade said:

does not allow disarming tech traps.

Wait, I'm missing something here connecting that point.  Why not?

[Roughtrade]

27 minutes ago, iantruesilver said:

Wait, I'm missing something here connecting that point.  Why not?

Because we cross posted and I had not found the blurb from the Technology Supplement.

 

I quite feel that whoever wrote the Technology Supplement wanted to steam roll over the person who wrote up Numerian Scavenger, and, well, the rest of the rules.  If anyone with the Technologist Feat can disarm Technology Traps then why create an entire Archetype based around disarming Technology Traps?

 

That said, I agree with the sentiment.  It was in effect what we were discussing with the Techslinger Archetype.  And Archtype built around using things that the Technologist Feat should have allowed anyways.  

[iantruesilver]

I’m of the lean that they mean anyone can still attempt to disarm tech based traps, technologist feat or not. It’s just that, without the feat you’re looking at like I dunno, a ridiculous +25 DC modifier.

 

It seems like Numerian Scavenger just kind of piggybacked on that and said “hey now you get it as a bonus feat out the gate. But sucks to be you, you trade away magic trap disables.

Edited January 16, 2023 by iantruesilver (see edit history)

[Roughtrade]

1 hour ago, iantruesilver said:

Okay.  Now that I'm done getting sidetracked on the Rogue front... Back to Techslinger.

Not sure what you mean...  Are you saying that Reliable is the Quick Clear deed (Actually this kind of more mirrors Expert Loading if I'm understanding them right?) for tech guns, and Charge Recycling... I'm not sure what feat/deed that would mirror.

I was not reopening the page to look at the specifics.  All I meant was that the Techslinger Archetype seems like a convoluted way to let a Gunslinger use their grit features on tech weapons.  It feels much more streamlined to my mind to let the Technologist Feat grant those as optional grit abilities if a tech weapon is available.  

 

The only reason I can see for a Techslinger to not be able to use the Black Powder grit features would be if they had always lived in a high tech environment and never handled black powder weapons before.